Gas Cooling

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

Gas Cooling

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The topic about water injection etc got me thinking, my blowtorch uses a butane cylinder, I was warned that the butane is seriously cold and exposure to it for a few seconds when changing canisters can lead to severe frost-bite.

Why is the gas so cold even inside a metal cylinder at room temperature? Instead of pumping water around a hot engine is it possible to blow a very cold gas around instead? Surely you would need far less gas than water in terms of volume depending how good the gas is at removing excessive heat. Less energy should be used blowing gas around than pumping water, right? And gas weighs so much less than liquid.

I might be missing a crucial point but if my rambling is correct then surely a vehicle could save alot of weight (to the tune of 10+Kg even?) improve cooling dramatically, and therefore engine life span, allowing the engine to be run harder. In a racing vehicle aerodynamics would be aided greatly too because you wouldn't need huge vents to cool water.

A Major disadvantage though, the gas is highly flamable, but then again so is petrol. I suppose the danger level will be measured by how much gas is used.

Your thought please, I'm aiming for at least 3 pages of your criticism!
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TRICKLE69
TRICKLE69
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008, 05:00
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Re: Gas Cooling

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Sounds like a pretty good idea. U could use NOS !
IT IS WHAT IT IS

mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
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Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
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Re: Gas Cooling

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TRICKLE69 wrote:Sounds like a pretty good idea. U could use NOS !
Tom, isn't air currently used in some ICE's :?:

So wouldn't gas work in similar ways? But instead of using air, you would simply use some particular gases, that have a lower temperature than normal "air", as to help absorb more heat under same circumstances.

Is there a certain gas that you have in mind :?:

Maybe gas-cooling would be more applicable to road cars which have relatively low operating temperatures and RPM's, in comparison to F1/motorsport engines.

My .02 cents.
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joseff
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Joined: 24 Sep 2002, 11:53

Re: Gas Cooling

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I've never handled a butane blowtorch, but I'd wager that the butane in the canister is liquid. It's cold to the touch because as it expands it turns into gas, absorbing heat as it goes.

Tom Hockley
Tom Hockley
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Joined: 26 Sep 2007, 16:56
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Re: Gas Cooling

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And the weight of the compressed (or liquified) gas would be prohibitive.

Edit/Addition: Sorry, I haven't read the water-injection topic to which you refer: My earlier response was based on the assumption that the gas is consumed, that is - not recirculated.

If however, it is part of a closed system, then I presume that any advantage would depend on the relative heat capacity of that gas and the water comparison.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Gas Cooling

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Joseff and Tom Hockley are right: when a liquid evaporates, it needs to take heat from the enviroment to gasify. That's the reason why you feel cold when you put cologne on: the cologne robs heat from your skin to evaporate.

This is the way all refrigerators and freezers work: by compressing a gas, converting it to a liquid (and producing heat in the process, heat that radiates in a radiator at the back of the freezer) and then allowing it to expand into a gas at a valve. When the liquid expands to gas, the pipe gets cold because of the heat that the liquid needs to adsorb for the phase change to occur.

The expansion takes place at the valve marked "C":
Image

Now, there are many autos with air conditioning: it works in the same way.

The problem to use it as a cooler, instead of water, is the added weight of the compressor, plus the hefty power you need for the compressor to work and liquify the gas, not because the gas weights much more than water (it weighs more or less the same). Of course, a water pump also weighs, but the power needed to impulse the water is much less than the power needed to convert a gas into a liquid.

Besides, as I explained, when you re-convert the gas to liquid, you generate heat (the inverse of heat adsorption that happens when you go from liquid to gas) and you'll need radiators anyway, like the ones in the back of your freezer. So, you cannot discard radiators.

The gas-liquid transformation do not generate or adsorb heat by itself (well, beyond the losses of the system), it merely pumps the heat from a place to another.

In freezers you use freon or something similar instead of water, just because the phase transformation occurs at 0ºC (or something like that) instead of occurring at 100ºC, like is the case with water.

For example (this is taken from How Stuff Works), if we were used to live at 200ºC, something like the temperature in your cooking oven, and you climb into your oven (to avoid the freezing 20ºC outside it) and put a flask of water in it, the water would boil at 100ºC, right?

Remember: you're comfortable at 200ºC, so you would feel that the boiling water is cold (because the boling water is way below the temperature you're used to live: it's "only" at 100ºC). So, if you're an alien from Mercury, one of the hottest planets, there you have a way to cool yourself in the hot Mercurian plains: take the water from the atmosphere (water is, of course, a gas in Mercury), compress it, and watch it boil. You could put some Mercurian beers in it to "cool" them at a "chilling" 100ºC... ;)

You could imagine a more efficient way to pump heat than a water pump: what matters is what it's called latent heat. That's the ability of a material to adsorb heat, roughly put. In the case of a refrigerator, you're using also the phase change heat to your advantage, as a way to store the "freezing energy", to call it in some way.

There are heat pumps that use lithium or other metals, used in nuclear reactors: they are pumped through electric fields (that is a fascinating part of CFD, called magneto-hydrodinamics).

I believe they are quite efficient (more precisely, they have a high Coefficient of performance), but heavy, not to mention that lithium and sodium salts are corrosive. This kind of liquid, that behaves like a metal, can be driven or pumped by electricity so, at nuclear plants, the pumps can be serviced: if inmersed into the liquid, the pumps would become radioactive.

Anyway, there you have another way to use the regenerative power: in a lithium heat pump... Moreover, you could use in the design the CFD engineers that have become unemployed after the new regulations. ;)

You could also use what is called solid state heat pumps, that work by magnetizing and demagnetizing gadollinium, pretty exotic and there are claims that they can cut the power consumption by 40% (yeah, sure).
Ciro

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Gas Cooling

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Why is the gas so cold even inside a metal cylinder at room temperature?
:shock: No! the gas is not cold inside there, it is its decompression that makes "cool". How?

Simply---> P * V = nR * T

When pressure goes down so quickly than volume has no time to grow at the same rate, then the other side of the ecuation must go down, as nR is a property of the gas (cant decrease), then T has to go down.

When you use a fire extinguisher it happens the same, you feel the cold of the compressed gas while its expanding. Air conditioning systems "use" that ecuation, too.
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Fridge13
Fridge13
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Joined: 18 Jun 2007, 22:02
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Re: Gas Cooling

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Go the ideal gas law....

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

Re: Gas Cooling

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Just top clarify a copuple of the points raised in the thread...

The main reduction in temperature occurs during the change of phase from liquid to gas, the official term is latent heat of vaporisation. Joseff and Ciro had it more or less spot on with the description from how stuff works and it's exactly the principle on which refrigerators and deep freezes (and aircon units) work. The reason you can get frost occurring on the outside of gas bottles is due to the fact that the butane is held liquid at a temperature far above its boiling point at normal temp/pressure by being kept under pressure, and the reduction of pressure at the torch nozzle permits the liquid in the cylinder to boil and change phase. The phase change can account for very large amounts of energy, but in practical terms the only way to use it in a car would be to lose the gas afterwards, then the mass of the car would decrease during the race.

As usual you'd be fighting the laws of thermodynamics if you wanted to use this system in a car as the gas would need to be re-pressurised and then cooled via a radiator, introducing efficiency losses and using energy as you did it. Couple that with the lower heat capacity of the gas versus water and I'm not sure it'd work so well.
Mike

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Gas Cooling

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Strangely enough, if you look at an NHRA Top Fuel or Funny Car engine, what you'll find is an engine that is essentially "fuel-cooled". It's an extreme example, but they don't run any coolant in the block or heads, and of course they are only running for less than one minute total. But they do pump massive amounts of fuel (>50gal/min) through the engine. And that fuel is primarily methanol, which has a very high latent heat value.

Other engines also employ fuel cooling. Most aircraft turbo-fan engines use liquid-to-liquid heat exchangers to cool the engine oil with fuel flow to the engine. But they have a very high fuel mass flow rate relative to the quantity of heat that is rejected through the lube oil.

With an internal combustion piston engine, there is insufficient fuel mass flow to absorb all of the heat being rejected through the engine's coolant jackets. Plus, a water/glycol coolant has a more favorable specific heat value than gasoline or diesel fuel, so it is a more effective coolant media. But the intake airflow, assisted by the latent heat of evaporation of the fuel mass, does provide effective (and necessary) "gas" cooling of the piston crown, valve seats, and valve heads.
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