Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
Well, it seems they're closer than ever, only one hold up. The IRL's Japanese race is the same day as Long Beach, the Japanese race is only willing to move one week (to avoid upsetting the intense Japanese racing season) but, that week happens to be when Nascar and the IRL are supposed to have a double-header which already happens to be sold out completely. But, this is a small set-back over-all. I doubt CCWS can survive past 2008, IRL is paying teams a million dollars a piece to come race there, while CCWS is losing races all over the place.
What do you guys think it'll look like when it's all over? Personally I think by 2009-2010 the regs will need a major overhaul. The current IRL Dallara is a terrible car that looks like a toy, has caused deaths, relies too much on ground effects and runs a Natural Aspirated engine. First off, they need to get turbos back there, perhaps start running on diesel too. They need to reduce downforce from the underbody (IRL teams have recently taken to using their wings to create lift at Indy, and several cars have flipped in the air because of debris on the track) and they need to make the cars difficult enough to drive that to race in the series you need a greater deal of professionalism.
accumulated quite a few links over time about this, intending to post a little something about the IRL/Champcar designs. Either this is wishful thinking or I've somehow mislabelled or misplaced those since I can't find them. Anyway, the open wheelers of America seem to be coming together. It wasn't as much a completely optionless situation rather than realising that anything is better than the current limbo. I may not like all the terms in the prenup, but hey, things can be worked out later.
This could be very good for F1 as well since, let's be realistic here, even having four or five races within the US itself wasn't going to grab too much attention there. Not among competition running numerous series and dozens upon dozens of events saturating the market. This removes the pressure: US is IRL/ChampCar/(NASCAR) country and F1 can make the customary yearly visits in its own right without worrying about image. IRL/ChampCar can do the same in Europe. In Asia, F1 and IRL/ChampCar can battle it out, a little competition is always healthy.
For IRL/ChampCar it is ultimately necessary to become more than a single make/spec series again. In IRL, Honda has made it clear that they're going to fill their obligations, but the platform is going to serve their purposes only if they eventually get serious competition. This would be great and I can already think of several US racing companies with the ability of designing and building their own chassis, some of whom would be newcomers to the game. The easygoing and optimistic enterpreneurial spirit in the US will help.
To me, it's questionable whether even F1 and IRL/ChampCar together (hopefully) can field enough "pinnacle open wheel" races throughout the World. The market is spread very thin even between the two. In time, I expect a third Asian series to emerge in its own right, just as GP2 already has already created such an offshoot.
The thing is F1 doesn't even look at Champcar/IRL, it looks down. F1 looks at Champcar as something lower than GP2. Check out the new requirements for a driver to even get in F1(specifically American)
checkered wrote:
This could be very good for F1 as well since, let's be realistic here, even having four or five races within the US itself wasn't going to grab too much attention there. Not among competition running numerous series and dozens upon dozens of events saturating the market. This removes the pressure: US is IRL/ChampCar/(NASCAR) country and F1 can make the customary yearly visits in its own right without worrying about image. IRL/ChampCar can do the same in Europe. In Asia, F1 and IRL/ChampCar can battle it out, a little competition is always healthy.
I'm pretty sure Lola and Panoz would jump at the chance of making a new chassis, and Honda and Cosworth are there already. I doubt there's any room for tire development anymore though. They need to make the regulations stricter than in 98-02 so that the competition can be as close, without driving the cost too high. But hopefully not strict enough to make the cars look identical.
For sure neither series can afford not to merge, and I agree low costs would have to be a main objective. Personally (in agreement with a few other posts) I'd like to see it closer to Champ Car than to the IRL. Champ Car-style cars with at least two manufacturers and a combination of the series' circuits--road and oval. Namely: Indy 500, Long Beach, Laguna Seca, Zolder, Texas Motor Speedway, Mont-Tremblant, Jerez, Belle Isle (Detroit), Road America, Mexico City, Surfer's Paradise, Motegi, Milwaukee Mile, Streets of Toronto, Watkins Glen, Infineon Raceway, Homestead-Miami, and St. Petersburg (in no particular order). That's 13 road/street courses and 5 ovals. I realize this dream schedule might not be the most cost effective, but oh well, they're professionals and we're just having some fun speculating! And speaking of the Indy 500, I miss the days when F1 pilots would drive this event. For the F1 fan in the USA, just imagine Kimi and Fernando on the front row of the great race! That is of course on an off weekend from F1
This should be a come as you are unification - without the IRL cars and engines. They look like a joke.
Ganassi, Penske, and the like should take their former CART Series Surplus Reynards, Lolas, Swifts, Other, body parts out of mothballs. i.e. with chassis that can go as far back to 1995 era. Of course with aero package deals depending on the venue.
Cosworth should go into overproduction to back up Honda teams while they wait for Honda to deliver or reconfigure their surplus 2.65L turbo engines from the CART days.
While they are at it, Toyota, can join the frey with their surplus 2.65L t stock of past CART championships.
The Last "real" Indy 500 occurred in 1995. Turbos need to return to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway with the chasses that we knew and loved.
This should make for a very exciting reunion. Sponsors will return, and NASCAR will be history (dream on).
Until such time, I will cease to take notice of either series -esp IRL.
Friday 22nd of February 2008 was the darkest day in US Open Wheel History.
TG has finally won the battle for domination of US Open Wheel, but the war has been lost on all fronts and fans won't be coming back.
There is nothing left to come back to see.
The Lolas, the Reynards, the Swifts, the 2.65L t engines, the 2 mile super speedways, the road course racing with the aforementioned chassis, the lot - its gone. What is left is an ugly looking chassis (p-o-s), a flatulent atmospheric engine (p-o-s), and empty grand stands in backwater venues.
TG, unless you allow the CART formula - the chasses, the engines and the turbos to come back and howl at your Speedway....
I agree. This shouldn't be ChampCar merging into IRL: wrong cars, wrong tracks, well...It's just wrong! It should be IRL merging into ChampCar. I hope it can survive until they realize this. Then they'll do it our way
that Tony George rubs many a motorsports fan the wrong way, to choose a fairly moderate figure of speech for the occasion. But it's in a framework of a long lasting debate about who has accomplished the least and who has caused the most damage for the better part of the last decade - or more. I guess if one wants to see any sense in the IRL/ChampCar merger, the scope has to extend farther into the past (and future) than that. Looking merely at the decline years the only rational extrapolation can lead to demise. The merger represents a great investment in two series that were failing on many levels so either this is utter folly, or an opportunity has managed to meet a vision once more. It's useless to explore the first option, but the latter one is intriguing.
It's not only about how F1 sees IRL/ChampCar, it's also very much about how IRL/ChampCar sees F1. And I find myself wondering whether the merger happening now is propelled as much by an opening, an opportunity emerging, as it is by the perceived economical necessity? George, through organising the USGP is intimately aware of how modern F1 (and the thinking of Bernie) works - and doesn't work. Paul Stoddart, whom some could've defined somewhat a loose cannon at times, is very knowledgeable in the team politics of his erstwhile series despite all the flare displayed - and he's well positioned to offer a venue of the unified series to be raced in Australia, should F1 leave for shores more willing to dispense of taxpayer money. Honda currently has a unique perspective on both worlds and outgoing HPD boss Robert Clarke surely has weighed in on how the new series can better position itself and where it can actually do better and outmaneuver and coexist with the Formula One juggernaut. There's an argument to be made that F1's latest financing hasn't been very successful, massive interest payments leaving the series just barely on the black for the last fiscal year. And the series is spreading its resources very thin at the same time with the aggressive geographical expansion. And Mosley and Ecclestone are not that far away from requiring canes or walkers in order to remain the "dynamic duo" of F1, to put a none too fine a point on it.
There's also an argument to be made that F1 is in the process of losing its technical way because the regulators haven't been able to level the field (essential for preserving the fanbase) by imaginative and liberating means but have time and again resorted to standardising parts to a greater and greater degree. For some manufacturers this might be fine, but for those with a willingness to push the envelope and be seen doing that there's a clear demand for a mass market venue to prove themselves. Indeed, even Ferrari is hedging its bets by investing in A1GP. Toyota and Honda could easily claim they're filling their F1 commitment by just supplying their homologated engines for privateer teams, while shifting the mainpart of their competition R&D to the US. Very senior people from both Ilmor and Cosworth have gone on the record about lost opportunities in F1 engine development and might be tempted by a better "formulated" challenge. Porsche might be in a position to strike Ferrari where it really hurts by getting exposure through an indigenous open wheel racing series. FIAT might be tempted to use their Maserati brand, selling well in the US, while Ghosn might be tempted to field a Nissan (call it the "Z" market). And so on.
In short, if I were an IRL/ChampCar marketing/tech exec, right about now I'd have no shortage of calls to be made. If F1 is about to leave its flanks unprotected, the right time to lay the groundwork for the battle is before the competitor's weakness becomes all too evident. Now, it might also be that IRL/ChampCar proves to be nothing more than a very centrally controlled and uninspiring thing ... that is fully up to the capability of the leadership of the new unified series, not least in openly investigating ideas and an ability to relinguish some control so a fuller scope of imaginations can drive the series forward and revitalise it. This season might be a strange one indeed, but I'm paying close attention to what the key people indicate happening beyond that. If they can spring the surprise of moving beyond a spec format and bringing in big manufacturer names, they have the makings of a revival. If the concept of variety remains at the level of varying liveries, well, at least they're familiar with the trajectory they'll continue to trudge on.
Wildly speculative? Well, yes. What I'd like to know, though, is whether the tea Tony George served Bernie Ecclestone (when they last met and "mutually agreed not to host a USGP in 2008") had a whiff of the clear waters off Boston harbor, by any chance?
They have the opportunity to truly re-structure and become the worlds foremost competitive automotive proving ground, and it could be done in the land of the manufactured consumer (USA).
Unfortunately, I'm sure that a few lawyers, a banker or two, as well as some other influential business people will all levy for a slice of the political pie, and force the leadership of the new series to screw the pooch like Bernie and Max.
Here's hoping. I would drop F1 in a heartbeat if there was an American Openwheel resurgance in coverage and technology.
Autosport, quoting a USA Today interview with Tony George wrote:Everything may not come together until the Indy 500. We'll be able to answer some questions once the season starts but things might not start to feel right until May.
Pitpass, quoting an ORF interview with Max Mosley wrote:When we have finished what we are preparing now, and a manufacturer can clearly see that the costs are under control and that the research expenditure is reasonable and goes in a useful direction, then I believe that we will see new manufacturers.
What a coincidence, that he should feel the urge to make his faith in the attractiveness of F1 towards manufacturers known at this point of time ...
Then there's Panoz and Cosworth, also apparently left with the short end of the stick. Panoz builds many different cars and will survive, but Cosworth conspicuously lacks any serious racing engine design or development work these days. What does the future hold for this venerable racing company? And let's not forget that Carl Haas made a big investment last year in Panoz parts and committed his parts supply company, Haas Auto, to servicing the Champ Car teams. This is another business stopped in its tracks by Champ Car's disappearance.
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All of which emphasizes the point that the big challenge for the IRL remains the same. Leadership is desperately needed to heal the wounds, get Indy car racing going again in the right direction and to create the right formula for the future that will attract engine manufacturers, car builders, sponsors, fans and serious media coverage. I've written about this at length in this space over the past year and will continue to discuss what the right Indy car formula for the future should be both here and in the pages of Motor Sport.
With reunion, at long last the first step has been taken, but the next series of steps will be even more difficult. In today's world, every major racing series is driven by manufacturers. Formula 1, NASCAR, sports car racing and motorcycle racing are fueled primarily by manufacturers. Commercial sponsorship rides on the back of massive investment from the competing manufacturers and if Indy car racing is to regain a respected position in the world motor sport community it must create an interesting technical formula for the future that will attract two, three or four manufacturers.
As I've written, the new formula also must produce an aesthetically attractive car as well as competing car builders. One of the problems of the current IRL Dallara-Honda--and I know some people don't like to hear this--is that it is unattractive both visually and aurally, as well as being a de facto spec car. All these things must change if Indy car racing is to be rehabilitated and thrive once again.
SpeedTV, quoting Kevin Kalkhoven wrote:The first thing is that anyone expecting unification to be some kind of magic bullet has probably got it wrong. There’s a lot of hard work ahead of us. One of the big things that will happen is the advent of the new car in 2010, which will put a lot of the teams on a level playing field. I think it will increase the level of competition and I think that together with a new schedule will go a long way toward developing the series both nationally and internationally.
SpeedTV, quoting Tony George wrote:Obviously, we’re going to be using our equipment. We have a schedule set for 2008. We’re going to try to bring aboard some really good events and hopefully we’re going to be able to work them out and add them to the 2008 schedule. I think 2009 becomes a cleaner sheet of paper and we really have the opportunity to bring the best of both series together with an eye toward 2010 and 2011, which will be the centennial of the Indianapolis 500. We’ve got a lot of good things going on.
I think all the teams employ talented people and a lot of them have worked in IRL and Champ Car. I think the teams will get up to speed quickly. They’ll get a lot of help, and I can guarantee all the teams in our paddock are excited about this and we’ll get them up to speed as quickly as we can. The real opportunity comes in the next couple of years. We’re going to be looking at new technologies. Turbochargers may or may not be a part of it, but very well could. We’ll look at alternative fuels and really have an opportunity to start shaping what we want Indy Car racing to be for the future.
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It’s important. We hope there will be some more interest. It will be an international series. The Indianapolis 500 has always been an international event and this is going to have it as its cornerstone. Certainly, international drivers and manufacturer participation is a good thing. I’m sure you’ll see a nice balance.
Wow, 2008 !?!?
That seems too soon. I thought we where talking 2009.
What kind of cars are they going to run? The rules? The teams?
Basically, in a nutshell.....Champ Car ceases to exist. All Champ Car teams committing to a full season in the IRL will get IRL cars.....a gift of 2 cars per team if they run Long Beach.
Long Beach is the last Champ Car race with their cars, but points will be given in the IRL championship. Edmonton stays, and they are still discussing Australia.
2009 promises to have the best of both in the schedule. Maybe half road races, and the rest ovals. No new formula, or better looking cars are possible until 2010/11.
And speaking of the Indy 500, I miss the days when F1 pilots would drive this event. For the F1 fan in the USA, just imagine Kimi and Fernando on the front row of the great race! That is of course on an off weekend from F1 
