Is Kimi becoming the new Mark Webber?

[Michiba]

Everyone know's Kimi's fast, just look at the no. of fastest laps he's got this year, yet he can't seem to convert that into points during a race. I know he's been 'unlucky' quite often this year, but that's what people have been saying about Mark Webber for a few years now.

seems like they're both fast around the track at a given point, but can't seem to get points at the end. This is in contrast to Lewis who is leading the wdc now, but hasn't gotten a fastest lap all year.

Anyone care to discuss? or perhaps redirect me if this has been discussed before

[mx_tifoso]

The main difference between Raikkonen and Webber is that the latter has not driven for a top team nor has won a Formula One DC, with the latter being quite an important achievement in the realm of motorsport.

An aspect of Raikkonen's is that the 'all or nothing' attitude dominates his on-track decisions, which sometimes leads to the 'nothing' part of it. And he's human afterall, so all errors and misjudgements can be forgiven without much consideration.

Let's wait and see how his career ends... with two more seasons of him in a Ferrari left. I doubt they'll be anything less than promising.

[Jersey Tom]

Kimi Raikkonen is a world champion.

[boci]

Come on now, Raikkonen actually has talent.

[hermanito]

Kimi is fast but he isn't the fastest. Almost four pilot are better than him.

1)Alonso
2)Hamilton
3)Vettel
4)Kubica

Kimi is world champion cause Ferrari was fastest car last year.

[boci]

I dont think Vettel or Kubica or even Hamilton have yet shown that they are indeed quicker then Raikkonen on a daily basis, this year he just hasn't hooked up with the car.

Raikkonen is also often careless and selfish but if were talking about race pace and race pace only only Alonso from that list can truly challenge him.


and I'm a McLaren/Hamilton fan btw.

[mike]

Kimi is world champion cause Ferrari was fastest car last year.
Kimi is fast but he isn't the fastest. Almost four pilot are better than him.

1)Alonso
2)Hamilton
3)Vettel
4)Kubica

Kimi is world champion cause Ferrari was fastest car last year.

As if... Kimi is world champion because he didnt give up

the Mclaren scored more points than Ferrari and Lewis was 17 points ahead before the final 2 races
and if you look back on who is closest to Michael in the V10 era, Kimi stands out from the rest Kubica Vettel and Hamilton only came into F1 after the cars were V8s
the only driver who is comparable to Kimi is Alonso.
both of them take their fight up to Schumacher.
Alonso is a more team building driver, but interms of pure pace Kimi is still the best.

back to the topic i do think Kimi's bad luck is some what similar to Webber's. Mark Webber probly havent won a few race due to his bad luck. Kimi lost a few WDC with his bad luck

[Michiba]

How do you define quick anyway? On a single lap? Or a whole race?

I can understand how you can say hamilton is faster, the evidence is in the wdc standings, however, as I pointed out, Kimi has 10 fastest laps this year, compared to Hamiltons 0.

Anyway, I'm a Kimi fan, so I he'll live up to his champion status in the next two years. Besides, 'promising' is how you'd describe someone on the up, like Vettel, not someone who should be at the top of his game.

And Mike, that's what I was trying to point out. I hope people don't start to think Kimi is slow because of his bad luck. I think Kimi was luckier than webber in that he got a fast car in the maclaren, despite that fact that it was unreliable at the time, whereas Webber has never been in a top team.

[mike]

I totally agree with Michiba
What I want to point out to every is that pace does equal result
Like the race in Singapore Ferrari CLEARLY have the fastest car and yet they went away with 0 points.
At the first stint Kimi was catching Lewis like mad with more fuel is his car, that is pure pace and he got nothing.
In France Kimi was faster than Massa even with 2 more laps of fuel Massa made no progress in closing him, but Kimi had an engine issue so as the result he didnt win.
In Great Britain Kimi was again catching Lewis in the first stint in the wet, but the team stayed with the same set and it rained.
In Canada, again catching up to the leaders in 1st stint, but got hit by Lewis
In Spa he was awsomely fast, questionable about being the fastest of the day, but evening the "great" Lewis cant match him is the softs
In Turkey, broken front wing and still set the fastest lap

Point is Kimi's pace is unquestionable.
despite that Lewis and Massa has also had their share of bad luck, but just not as much as Kimi.
Lewis
-China 07 came in 1 lap earlier he would have won the race he dominated
Massa
-Hungary would have won without the engine issue

like Alonso said "it takes pace and alot of luck to repeat what Michael did"
it is very easy to read too much from the results, but racing is more than that, thats why I'm sure alot of people wont call Michael Schumacher the greatest

[Rob W]

I think the thing which stands out in drivers like Kimi is that when things are not really hooked up well he suffers badly. Alonso, on the other hand, can take those bad days and still turn them into 3rd places. Kimi doesn't seem to fight like that.

For me, this is a key reason Alonso is such a valuable driver compared to many of those above him in the WDC standings.

R

[zac510]

no, Kimi is becoming the new Andrea de Crasheris!

[myurr]

The car is also a huge factor - the Ferrari, especially with Kimi's setup, is much kinder to its tyres allowing Kimi to show superior race pace but hinders him in qualifying. We may find that next years car suits Kimi much more than Massa, or that McLaren suck in qualifying but blitz them in the race.

Likewise over at McLaren I think Kovaleinen is a great driver but he's been totally blown out of the water by Hamilton this year, especially in race trim. I'm sure the car is exaggerating the difference even though Hamilton is the better driver. We may see them being much closer next year.

My personal belief is that in equal machinery that worked perfectly for each drivers style, neither hindering or flattering, then we'd see Kimi as the fastest in outright pace, with Alonso and Hamilton right behind, and Massa right behind them. Vettel et al may well be pretty darn close behind the top 4.

That said I agree that as soon as the car isn't quite 100% Kimi seems to suffer a little more than Alonso or Hamilton, who both seem able to make the most of a bad day, but Massa suffers the most. He's been incredibly lucky, or the team has been incredibly good, that this year the Ferrari has worked to his liking at pretty much each and every circuit, and that his setup has worked well almost everywhere.

[djos]

Come on now, Raikkonen actually has talent.

Oi! Webber has loads of Talent, in fact he has more talent than is good for him and this is the reason everyone thinks he isn't a good racer - the fact is he out qualifies his cars which cant perform at the same high level for an entire race distance.

A classic example of his abilities when given a good car was Monaco '06 where he qualified 3rd and was on for a merit based podium when his Williams caught fire - Kimi's Macca also expired in the same race but my point is Webber, Kimi & Nando had cars which were performing well and were preceding to wipe the floor with everyone else!

[tarzoon]

Webber is just ridiculously unlucky. Accidents, cars, the whole lot. He keeps being faster than Coulthard, who was never a slow guy.

He's probably one of the few who would survive 20 or 30 years ago, when f1 drivers had their "balones" the size of coconuts.

[djos]

Webber is just ridiculously unlucky. Accidents, cars, the whole lot. He keeps being faster than Coulthard, who was never a slow guy.

He's probably one of the few who would survive 20 or 30 years ago, when f1 drivers had their "balones" the size of coconuts.

yeah he's really had the works from Flying Mercedes Sports Cars to Blown F1 engines, expired Gearboxes and Rookies taking him out all when in good positions!

The amazing part is tho he has always outperformed every single one of his team mates including DC who is a great driver.