Standards and penalties

[bgroovers]

I am getting sick and tired of the constant interference (and lack of (valencia) in f1 today. Let them race and touch and make mistakes and run wide! Most of the time this seems to happen. Kubica for example (despite his recent comments about other people standards) barged his way passed Heikki in Singapore and then ran Kimi off the road in Fuji. Drivers further down the field, for example Trulli in Belgium ran a whole bunch of drivers wide at the first corner, but no action was taken. Fisi in Turkey!
Lewis "dangerous" move on glock in Italy is constantly thrown up but he just didnt realize Glock was there. It happens all the time lower down the field and is just a part of racing. Fisi and Coulthard have had numerous "avoidable" accidents this year with out any penalties as it should be!
I was again astounded when Bourdais was given his penalty and then once again when it emerged the stewards had considered for giving Webber a peanlty for "forcing" massa of the road (into pit lane exit).
F1 is at its Wheel banging best when left alone. Massa and Kuiba in /fuji last year running each other off the track. If that had been Lewis and massa this year what price a McLaren drive through?
Planet f1 ran a very good piece on what if the stewards didn't interfere: http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 13,00.html
I know they'll be a lot of anti Hamilton comments made but all the top F1 drivers are calling for more consistent penalties and they are not saying that just because Bourdais got a penalty for being hit by Massa! Lweis driving and passing has at times been amazing, he does still make mistakes (oh boy does he!) but his driving standards are no better or worse than anyones else's in F1. Bring back Tony-Scott Andrews or another fair mined person. NOT Allen Donely!
Both Lewis and Massa have been phenomenal this year, way better than their team mates and would be worthy Champions. Its just a shame that the FIA stewards will have tainted Massas if he pulls it off...
Would be nice to see some clean racing at next 2 GPs and some clean respectful comments of our heros!

[superstring]

As odious as it may seem to the true racing fan, it seems obvious to me that these penalties are being applied for one reason and one reason only: to keep the show (oops, I mean "championship") going until the last race.

[DaveKillens]

This is definitely the ugly side of Formula One. While most of what we witness is spectacular and exciting racing, much too many times decisions by race officials have left a bad taste in our mouths. And with so much at stake in this big money sport, even the tiniest decision has a large impact.
Many years ago I used to referee sports matches, especially baseball. One smart man told me, "the best you can be is 50% right, while the other half will think you wrong.". So when a driver has a decision made for or against him, fans rally and paople become polarized. What really compounds the entire problem that the two big powers in F1, Bernie Ecclestone, and Max Mosley, are ruthless and unscrupulous. Bernie will do anything for an extra buck, while Mad Max, the tyrant dictator in FIA, heads a malevolent, powerful, and corrupt machine. How can you trust either? I don't.
And yup, this is not the first time the rules have been misused/bent in an attempt to engineer a result that pleases both Max and Bernie.
Back when Senna had just recently died, and the star of Schumacher was ascending, both Max and Bernie realized it was to their mutual gain to back this young German, and give him all the help they could. And yes, it included terrible examples of inconsistency in the rules.

With the popularity of video recordning, fans can now examine events in the tiniest detail, and make comparisons. For instance, at the start of this year's Spa, Kimi passed and pressured Massa off the road, forcing him to back off and fall astern. Yet last week's blocking move by Webber was entirely similar...... and Webber was investigated for his actions.
Oh yea, the application of the rules is inconsistent, and to me it stinks of political interference.

[MattF1]

Criticisms of referees in top level football (soccer) matches goes on all the the time in the mainstream media. This principle seems to have now been transferred to formula one, and this will become bad for the sport - just as tv has ruined top flight football in england. We will still watch the sport whatever happens, I don't really care much about the overtaking - just watching F1 is great (i follow F1 as it because i am so interested in the technical aspect of racing). If I wanted to watch bumper to bumper non stop race action with less of a technical influence I would watch touring cars (and I do).
Sorry, I seem to have digressed from the point; that being that the stewards will have to get ar more careful with the decisions they take, because the scrutiny from all sides is far higher than ever, and that trend isn't about to change quickly.

[This post probably makes no sense, so apologies for that if you just read it and thought, 'What am I doing with my life? reading people's opinions, posted by people of varying knowledge (meant in the nicest possible way) and some people don't even sound like they even know what they are talking about - posting as if they are some authority on the matter (myself included i'm afraid).']

Sorry for having what must seem like a mental breakdown partway through the post - I can assure you I am quite mad.

[nae]

in game referees make on the spot decisions and then the game continues
F1 stewards take ages, wait till after the match them make wacky decisions
or take 2-10 laps

(even 3rd match refs in rugby pause the game till the decision in made)

you always have tor remember they had a meeting about that bad decision its not just a on the spot call

[Rob W]

I've seen a couple of things which make me think quote a few in the F1 admin and driver's circle are actually in agreement that the recent spate of penalties have been maybe not wrong, but definitely detrimental to the sport.

Alonso and Button have both said this week they support the idea of permanent stewards - they didn't show and learnings as to whether they agreed with the punishments dished out this year but the fact they support the idea at all shows they recognise the failings of the current stewards. Alonso has been on the end of some horrendous penalties in his time - the qualifying incident at Monza in 2006 was a complete joke - so I'm sure he is worried for his own sake's when he is the one back at the front competing with Ferrari. On face value - all of these decisions seems to be pro Ferrari (yes, even Massa's penalty.. as it was the only avenue the stewards could justify at all also penalising Hamilton).

On the other hand, the fact that the F1 official website bothered to put videos of the last race's incidents on their front page at all says to me they know it is an issue that wont go away. They should have no need at all to justify any rulings because they should simply be able to point at the rule book and say "read". Many of the recent rulings can't be justified at all in the rule-book nor in historical ruling precedents.

No matter what your opinion on Hamilton's start, Massa's penalty in hitting him was a worse infringement and worthy of worse punishment. Having not learned his lesson Massa hit yet another can in the same race - confirmed by drivers, ex-drivers, other racing series experts etc. Incredibly, Bourdais was the one given the penalty. F1 needs to sort their crap out as this sort of ruling is just laughable, not to mention fuels every fire there is of people claiming some deep seated bias within the FIA towards one team or another.

Stewards have made a number of disputed calls in 2008. In reality, there should be no ambiguity on their rulings and they should be justifiable immediately and in-full. Hamilton's Spa penalty was a pretty low point of F1 - shooting itself in the foot in PR terms and then not having an immediate, plain, unambiguous justification for it. Bourdais' was even worse although because he's a (respectfully) nobody in the 2008 championship terms it'll be pretty quickly forgotten I imagine.

R

[jddh1]

To all of those that say that the FIA is pro-Ferrari:

They changed the freaking rules (point scoring system) because they were tired of Ferrari winning too much. Now, I have no problem with dynasties be it Ferrari, which I am a fan, or Williams for instance back in the 90s. But it's quite insane I think to believe that these past two years the FIA have been pro-Ferrari when in the past they have shown not to be. I think the FIA needs a change. I say let them race. But that's just my opinion.

[djos]

Lets not forget that Massa driving over the white line and fully onto the red painted section of the pit-lane exit to overtake Webber wasn't even looked at by the stewards!!!!!

[Rob W]

Lets not forget that Massa driving over the white line...to overtake Webber wasn't even looked at by the stewards!!!!!

Yes, it was. They questioned Webber and were considering punishing him for dangerous driving.

Stewards questioned Webber over Massa move

Shameful. The rules say you can make one defensive move - which Webber did - slowly moving to his right in one continuous move as is within the rules.

I wonder, has Massa clipped Webber while completely on the off-track area and proceeded to spin out or crash - would Webber be guilty of anything? Can a car completely on the track be even foul a car which is off the track.?

I bet the Stewards breathed a sigh of relief they didn't have to invent something for that one.

R

[djos]

Lets not forget that Massa driving over the white line...to overtake Webber wasn't even looked at by the stewards!!!!!

Yes, it was. They questioned Webber and were considering punishing him for dangerous driving.

Stewards questioned Webber over Massa move

Shameful. The rules say you can make one defensive move - which Webber did - slowly moving to his right in one continuous move as is within the rules.

I wonder, has Massa clipped Webber while completely on the off-track area and proceeded to spin out or crash - would Webber be guilty of anything? Can a car completely on the track be even foul a car which is off the track.?

I bet the Stewards breathed a sigh of relief they didn't have to invent something for that one.

R

You missed my point, "they didn't look at Massa for driving over the white line" - as you correctly pointed out they looked at Webber instead!!! what a bunch of clowns!!!! =D>

[bgroovers]

Great to see some fellow f1 lovers making good points rather than the usual slanging match that takes place. Also good to see other posters worrying about the sanity by even being on this forum!
Massa move on webber should not even be investigated. Neither did anything wrong. It was a terrific move by massa and a robust defense by Webber and should be applauded! I along with many of you want of see this kind of action. Villeneuve vs Arnoux type classic battles. Kubica massa in fuji last year. One of the greatest moments ever in f1. Berger running Mansell of the road in Imola in 89/90, he didnt see mansell just as Lewis didnt see Glock!
I really hope that the FIA is not bias to Ferrari, but it is getting increasingly hard to think anything else. What is very clear is that Bernie and Max want the show to always go to the last round, and maybe they are right... Does it really matter who wins or loses the championship? Massa had a unreliability, Kubica fighting in a slower car. The reason we all watch is the excitement! The jangling of nerves just before the red lights go off, the cries of outrage as your favorite driver/team gets overtaken or leaves the pits with the fuel hose attached! The awe as some one leaves the pits on inters as pulls off an unbelievable overtake on a damp track.
I was going to say i hope the best man wins the championship, but maybe i just want to be on the edge of my seat till the last lap in Brazil...

[timbo]

Lets not forget that Massa driving over the white line and fully onto the red painted section of the pit-lane exit to overtake Webber wasn't even looked at by the stewards!!!!!

Look at this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eot15t4d ... re=related
Who's over the white line?

[myurr]

Lets not forget that Massa driving over the white line and fully onto the red painted section of the pit-lane exit to overtake Webber wasn't even looked at by the stewards!!!!!

Look at this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eot15t4d ... re=related
Who's over the white line?

The white pit lane line is not the issue - it's routine for the drivers to cross that (not when exiting the pits, when racing on circuit).

Massa had all four wheels over the white line denoting the edge of the circuit on the pit straight AND drove through the red and white hatched no go area between the circuit and the pit lane.

EDIT: Do you honestly think the red and white hatched area is there just to look pretty? Or is it an area where cars should NEVER enter?

[timbo]

Massa had all four wheels over the white line denoting the edge of the circuit on the pit straight AND drove through the red and white hatched no go area between the circuit and the pit lane.

At first, you shouldn't mention crossing white line in that incident or you have to admit that LH had also made foul.

Do you honestly think the red and white hatched area is there just to look pretty? Or is it an area where cars should NEVER enter?

If you ask me - yes. There's no such markins on many tracks (e.g. Monza). Japaneese people - love bright colours


Just don't force drivers that you don't like to follow the rules
YOU invented.

[myurr]

Massa had all four wheels over the white line denoting the edge of the circuit on the pit straight AND drove through the red and white hatched no go area between the circuit and the pit lane.

At first, you shouldn't mention crossing white line in that incident or you have to admit that LH had also made foul.

Do you honestly think the red and white hatched area is there just to look pretty? Or is it an area where cars should NEVER enter?

If you ask me - yes. There's no such markins on many tracks (e.g. Monza). Japaneese people - love bright colours


Just don't force drivers that you don't like to follow the rules
YOU invented.

Different white lines so that's not a like for like comparison. Massa crossed over the white line denoting the edge of the track alongside the pit wall, before getting to the pit lane exit.

And are you really arguing that just because only some circuits have a red and white hatched area that it's purely for decorative reasons? You think that it is both safe and legal to chop right across the pit lane exit without leaving ANY room for cars exiting?

Can you at least agree that regardless of whether Massa should or should not have been penalised, that the FIA should announce that such a move will be punished in future?