McLaren should protest Ferrari team orders

[USAF1FAN]

I'm a Ferrari fan, but I do believe that McLaren and Hamilton have been treated unfairly. There is a rule against "team orders." Whether the rule is stupid or not is beside the point--McLaren should demand that it be enforced. We all know that Kimi let Massa pass. If the stewards were able to "judge" that Hamilton did not adequately give up his position to Kimi after cutting the chicane in Belgian, then they should also be able to "judge" that Kimi did give up his position to Massa in violation of the rules.

I don't like protests and especially do not like race results changed by the stewards, but they did overturn Hamilton's win in Belgian, so this protest is only fair. Massa should be put back to third.

[mx_tifoso]

Kovalainen let Hamilton pass earlier in the season.

Heidfeld let Kubica pass earlier in the season too, at the Canadian GP IIRC.

The team did not order Raikkonen to let Massa pass, but Raikkonen simply knew what he had to do as a teammate and acted accordingly. Massa actually has a chance to win the DC this season, and it was the opposite last season, where Massa did the same for Raikkonen. Besides, a driver voluntarily giving up his track position is not against the rules AFAIK.

This was one of the cleanest events all season, did you really have to spoil it with this? Seriously?

[wesley123]

I dont know if you heard radio traffic of ferrari but if there wasnt a order it was legal. If it was illegal then you would be punished if you got passed. Although Kovalainen did the same earlier, he did it on a more fair way, in a turn, raikkonen could also wait and 'miss his breaking point' that wouldn't have a problem of useless topics

[nae]

its not team orders its team play

like when a footballer passes the ball to another to score a goal
when they have a better chance, the team still wins

[woohoo]

eh, banning team orders is just silly.
1. No matter what, it will happen.
2. The drivers are on the same team, ergo, they SHOULD help each other. (where would the team spirit be otherwise.. ?)

If they compete one another, good. But dont expect it.
The only reason two team teammates scan/will compete against one another is if they are on a completely different pace than the rest of the field. (Lauda & Prost, Prost & Senna)

And Heidfeld dident let Kubica past, it just looked like that due to the speed of Kubica
Also: have you seen a team sport in witch the teammates battle each other ?

[JamesS]

The problem is, Massa was dog slow compared to Kimi. Kimi didn't simply need to "miss his braking points" to allow Massa past, he needed to slow by 2 secs a lap for Massa to catch him.

I don't fully agree with such an act. Kimi won the WDC last year because of it, rather than his own outstanding achievement.

[myurr]

Whilst technically I think they are in breach of the rule, at least in spirit if not the letter of the law, I think the law is one of the most stupid in F1. Should be removed from the rule book immediately.

It's a self policing situation anyway. Just taking Ferrari as the example as the rule was brought in after their previous shenanigans, the knock to their image through their previous behavior did far more damage than any FIA sanction. Thus they wouldn't do that again in the same manner.

[Vasco]

I think Kimi used common sense more than anything. It was a bit more obvious than the Heikki and Lewis move but he even acknowledged it quite blatantly in the press conference...There is absolutely nothing wrong with helping the team. If he was forced to concede his position then its a totally different story...

[Ray]

[cba_]

What about McLaren on Hockenheimring then?

Stop crying

[modbaraban]

Come on guys, everyone does this. Even Hamilton commented on this today saying that he'd do the same.

[Rob W]

In some ways - theoretically - I agree. At any point of any race drivers should be racing. An outsider who doesn't grasp the F1 team idea would surely be wondering what is going on and it does make sense that every driver ought to be racing at all times possible - meaning the voluntary relinquishing of any place is an offence.

However, how do you fairly judge it when a driver is just being courteous and letting a car on an obviously lighter fuel load through for example? So, in practical terms, it's pointless to complain about something which you'd need a mind-reading machine to prove. To rule on these matters would open terrible doors for unfair and shady rulings at the end of races.. (E.g. Car 12 let car 9 through on lap 22 - data shows his revs were 9% down on previous back-straight runs.. Therefore a 20 second penalty will be... )

Something to consider though: What about if it has been Alonso in 2nd place and he'd let Massa through - following his public claims he'd help Massa? If you think this is wrong (in 'racing spirit' terms) then rightly it is also wrong in any situation no matter which team you're racing for. Correct? Or should on-track rules apply differently when team-mates are concerned?

(If that is the case, then why was Alonso penalised at Hungary last year for impeding Hamilton's qualifying? He could just say: 'we agreed we'd do it like that - prove otherwise and I'll happily take the penalty' =D>)

R

[shir0]

ferrari fan my a$$...why didn't you f*cking complain last season you dummy? or even when Heikki did the same for Hamilton this season?

okay, assuming you're a steward and you ARE brain-dead enough to even consider starting an investigation on this "issue"...let's look at the rule book again, shall we...

39) THE RACE
39.1 Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.

-How can you prove there were any team orders at all?

-Why are you so sure that Mclaren was "disadvantaged" by what Kimi did for his teammate.

-Was any point "taken away" from McLaren in any way because of what the two Ferrari drivers did? Heikki was never in contention for 3rd place at any time during the race. Not to mention that he DNF'd.

-Is there any specific phrase in that rule that says "a driver who's leading another driver from the same team shall not allow that other driver to pass him, by slowing down..."?

-Is there something like..."team mates are not allowed to let each other pass without a fight"?

-Is there anything on the rule boook that says "if a driver let's his team mate pass him it will be considered as team orders".

IMO...this rule was put into place because of possible strife within teams with both of its race drivers DEFINITELY in the run for the WDC and there is a possibility of the team favouring one driver to the detriment of the other. THIS WAS NOT PUT IN PLACE FOR THIRD PARTY GROUPS, TEAMs OR INDIVIDUALS TO FIND GROUNDS FOR PROTESTS.

Even then, it's a dumb rule. The teams are the ones who're providing the cars for the drivers. The drivers ARE EMPLOYEES OF THE TEAMS AND ARE BEING PAID AS SUCH. Therefore, however you look at it...THE TEAMS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENFORCE TEAM ORDERS. This is one rule I'm agreeable to have removed.

If it means anything to anyone, MX_Tifosi was right...this last race was one of the cleanest GP in the entire season. And still you had to make such comments. There are other F1 forums out there to pollute. Go and wreak your havoc there and not here.

[USAF1FAN]

[quote="shir0"]ferrari fan my a$$...why didn't you f*cking complain last season you dummy?

We Americans already look stupid enough without you making it worse.

[PlatinumZealot]

I have nothing against team racers shuffling to change the outcome whether by Orders or not. But it's in the RULES.. and KIMI ADMITTED TO Doing it. That is as black and white as it gets...

Compare this with Hamilton's chicane controversy..