Stewards' decisions would be explained

[timbo]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72011

I think they do right thing, exactly as I wanted.

[ISLAMATRON]

reading it will be like talking to a crazy person on the public transit. The stewards are completely clueless, look how they say that each steward should have at least seen 1 GP before becoming race stewards. How rediculously absurd!

[timbo]

reading it will be like talking to a crazy person on the public transit. The stewards are completely clueless, look how they say that each steward should have at least seen 1 GP before becoming race stewards. How rediculously absurd!

One could argue that writing it may be the same if reader has the same attitude that you have.
How can you be so self centered? So you assume you have better knowledge on racing that stewards?

[Ciro Pabón]

Here we go again.

Where I live, to be a local steward you have to be a marshall first, and for some years. A marshall career is tricky, almost like a minefield. You have to be marshalling Saturdays to advance in your career, while drivers are racing on Saturday, and I'm not talking about Sundays. Evidently, you cannot race and do marshalling at the same time.

In british soccer there is a particular and unique case, Steve Baines, the only player in modern history to become a referee. There are many soccer players left out the field after their playing career ends, they don't arbiter because they lack referee experience.

The sad fact is that most racers don't have to learn the tidbits of the laws of the game, many of them only were trained in the rudiments of the regulations when learning to drive. Learning to marshall is as hard as learning to drive: it takes years.

In order to be a marshall or a steward you have to spend a lot of time without any pay. Most people I know that got a paid position had to wait years. That's not precisely the position an ex-F1 driver or any ex-racer wants or can be, in my experience.

When you become a referee or a steward you're not precisely getting a post where you can receive praise or admiration. No matter what your decisions are, some people is going to protest. Some will insult you, call you a corrupt man and in extreme cases you'll receive threats, even harm, not only you but your family.

I've been threatened many times by angry fathers at a karting track, people not only insulting me, but trying to roll over me with a car (well, just once, but that was frightening, I can tell you). Only years of executive positions at administrative levels or even decades of field work can prepare you for this kind of things. Many drivers tell you that they wouldn't put up with what you have to live every weekend.

It's true that there is a shortage of experienced marshalls, while we have overabundace of retired drivers. Why? Mainly, it's lack of experince or training.

What worries me particularly is that in Formula One is becoming commonplace a very aggressive challenge of the stewards and marshalls. People see authority figures being abused in that context and I'm sure that over time that kind of thing does rub off. Years ago it was argued that permanent stewards had a very large influence in the sport, now they claim they have to be permanent again. Who understands fans?

Anything that improves the standard of marshalling and stewarding has got to be listened to, and I wouldn't put barriers in front of anyone. I wouldn't say no to ex-pros becoming stewards, but by the same token I wouldn't say you'll make a good steward just because you've driven a car. I personally think that if you're good enough it doesn't matter if you were a driver or a policeman.

I acknowledge the drivers fitness levels and knowledge of racing is a massive advantage for ex-professionals. Even though I followed racing all my life and have been on the track for a while, I'm not as "tactically aware" as any ex-pro is, and what took me ten years to learn they probably already know.

I don't think there'll be the interest and the numbers among ex-drivers, but if one or two came through then that would be a success. It's certainly worth a try because the positive aspects are there, but I have no major hopes.

I can argue that the desperate efforts by FIA to improve transparency show as much ignorance on the part of fans, as Timbo says, as lack of knowledge on the part of the drivers. No wonder, most are under 25. Now they're gonna tell me that after 58 years of running a championship, they've discovered that stewards decisions do influence races. Duh.

I believe that most people with an attitude toward stewards is the product of their generation, not the cause of these problems. It's part of the "rock star syndrome" that you behave badly. This decision by FIA is clearly a reaction to the rock stars we have now as drivers and the rock groupies we have posing as racing fans. At least Islamatron races, timbo. I don't know if he "marshalls", but I don't think so.

Phew. Sorry for the length of the rant, this is not the first time I talk about this issue...

[RH1300S]

It seems like a good step forward to me, all we need will be good stewards and there's a good chance the nonsense will almost vanish.

Before criticising the "watched one race" rule - it's worth reading the whole text........

The Stewards need to have a stewarding super licence - I understand that as meaning they have a required amount of stewarding experience at non-F1 races. These races may also be other high profile series, so why should we assume that the FIA will be putting people in place who have no experience?

[Miguel]

Ciro, I know I'm way OT, but what does Rockstar syndrome mean? I've found the Urban Dictionary definition, but I'm not quite sure.

[ISLAMATRON]

reading it will be like talking to a crazy person on the public transit. The stewards are completely clueless, look how they say that each steward should have at least seen 1 GP before becoming race stewards. How rediculously absurd!

One could argue that writing it may be the same if reader has the same attitude that you have.
How can you be so self centered? So you assume you have better knowledge on racing that stewards?

I have seen far more than 100 GP's so yes I assume that I have more knowledge than someone who may have seen 1! These moves will make no quality improvement in the officiating of the future GP's, it is merely a "cover your ass" move by the FIA. This is no different than the crap the NBA has instituted over the last couple years. Both sports I love are being destroyed by the highly spurious officiating.

[modbaraban]

LoL I agree with Ciro. Football fans are always better at football than the players they watch, better at coaching than the coaches, and waaaaayy better at judging than the pro refs. Why should racing be any different?

[timbo]

I have seen far more than 100 GP's so yes I assume that I have more knowledge than someone who may have seen 1!

Can you see difference between "watching" and "attaining" a GP as an official? Do you think that national autosport federation would choose regular guy from the streat and promote him to be a steward on F1 GP? As for "watching" I watched probably around 250, may I tell you to shut up, then?

These moves will make no quality improvement in the officiating of the future GP's, it is merely a "cover your ass" move by the FIA.

"Cover your ass" by uncovering information? Something new in my book.

[ISLAMATRON]

I have seen far more than 100 GP's so yes I assume that I have more knowledge than someone who may have seen 1!

Can you see difference between "watching" and "attaining" a GP as an official? Do you think that national autosport federation would choose regular guy from the streat and promote him to be a steward on F1 GP? As for "watching" I watched probably around 250, may I tell you to shut up, then?

These moves will make no quality improvement in the officiating of the future GP's, it is merely a "cover your ass" move by the FIA.

"Cover your ass" by uncovering information? Something new in my book.

I said far more, I think I can join you in the 250+ club. From the decisions, inconsistancy, lack there of and delay of them in the last couple years of GP's it seems to me they would do better by getting someone from off the street. If you think the GP's have been well officated lately then I guess thats where our discussion ends.

CYA by distraction... they gave us an explanation of rulings in that past, that didnt make them any better.

[timbo]

I said far more, I think I can join you in the 250+ club. From the decisions, inconsistancy, lack there of and delay of them in the last couple years of GP's it seems to me they would do better by getting someone from off the street. If you think the GP's have been well officated lately then I guess thats where our discussion ends.

So what do you have against FIA's actions on improving stewarding?
They aim to get better consistency by forcing stewards to attain 5 GPs as an observers (at least 1 before they are given superlicense). Add GP that they would actually work on and you have 6 GPs. How many fans have the ability to attain six GP a year (hell, I want to become a steward )? And I believe that in observation role they would be provided with all the info that actual stewards would receive. Another thing is that official info on the accident would be given to public, I think this is great. It sooo boring to hear every other fan saying that "he knows better". At least there would be same info for everybody.

CYA by distraction... they gave us an explanation of rulings in that past, that didnt make them any better.

Ever heard of the Bible ? Too many things won't be clearer after an "explanation". However, that cut-track rule had become obviously clearer and easier to apply, as were some qualy procedures etc...

[ISLAMATRON]

So what do you have against FIA's actions on improving stewarding?
They aim to get better consistency by forcing stewards to attain 5 GPs as an observers (at least 1 before they are given superlicense). Add GP that they would actually work on and you have 6 GPs. How many fans have the ability to attain six GP a year (hell, I want to become a steward )? And I believe that in observation role they would be provided with all the info that actual stewards would receive. Another thing is that official info on the accident would be given to public, I think this is great. It sooo boring to hear every other fan saying that "he knows better". At least there would be same info for everybody.

I sincerely hope they do impove the Stewarding... By attain, do you mean attend? I didnt read anywhere that said they would attend 5 GP's in a semi-stewardship role. If so then I stand corrected, but I dont think I read that. We all have the information needed, we have the rules, vague as they are, and the video... we all saw what happened in SPA, we all saw the videos... the steward's explanation of how they made such a bad decision does not help the situation at all.

CYA by distraction... they gave us an explanation of rulings in that past, that didnt make them any better.

Ever heard of the Bible ? Too many things won't be clearer after an "explanation". However, that cut-track rule had become obviously clearer and easier to apply, as were some qualy procedures etc...

I think we've both been reduced to rambling on this topic.

[timbo]

I sincerely hope they do impove the Stewarding... By attain, do you mean attend?

sure, stept too little over too long time...

I didnt read anywhere that said they would attend 5 GP's in a semi-stewardship role. If so then I stand corrected, but I dont think I read that. We all have the information needed, we have the rules, vague as they are, and the video... we all saw what happened in SPA, we all saw the videos... the steward's explanation of how they made such a bad decision does not help the situation at all.

Personally, I don't think Spa decision was bad. Harsh - yes, but not bad. Also, nor "bad nor "good" does not amount to justice. But let's not make another Spa-penalty thread.
My point is - you have rules provided by FIA - is this bad? I guess no. So would it be bad if you would have press release on how driver violated the rules and why he was punished?
FIA definetely takes steps to improve consistency (why else should they force stewards to attend GPs?) - is this bad? About whether or not it is "semi-stewardship" role - this is actually my guess although one would imagine FIA won't take them to 5 GPs to party...

I just can't see a point in "people in FIA are dumb and can't make anything good" - try to look at any situation from their side. If you think YOU can improve it go out and start stewarding at local racing, participate in your local autosport federation etc...

[Ciro Pabón]

I'm sorry for the length of this post: I have no time to make it shorter.

Of course you have to attend a GP as steward to become one. Frankly, my ribs hurt already. I have laughed alone, in front of the keyboard, for 10 minutes, really.

Let me talk slow-ly. To become steward at a local level you HAVE to be a marshall first. Imagine at Formula One level. Think for a moment, pleeze!

It's the same thing as principal referee and sideline referee in football: to get to the center you have to spend a lot of time on the sides at the LOCAL level. From there to a amateur league level you spend even more time and many courses! From there to professional level, it's not only time, you also need a lot of luck: a bad call and you're toasted.

A single marshalls’ post include:

An Observer, between one and three Flag marshals, an Incident Officer and the Incident Team, that is, Incident (Fire) Marshals, Course Marshals and Trainees. You start as trainee, of course. To become Incident Marshall you need two years of experience. To become Course marshall, you need one year. That's only to man one post around the track.

Directing all posts is the Clerk of the Course and he does not only manages you, he also manages emergency vehicle drivers, scrutineers, timekeepers, Judges of Fact, Judges of the Paddock, Judges of the Assembly Area, Judges of Pits and Judge of Startline. From there to Steward of the race, you have a long path to walk.

From there to Formula One... well, what can I say?

Professional referees are not picked among people that watches 100 or 1000 or one million games on TV, for the love of Pete. Do we really think that FIA picks its stewards among people in the stands? Are judges picked among people that watches "Law and Order" or forensic experts among those who follow "CSI Miami"? No wonder some people don't have any respect for arbiters.

Those persons could think that you attain experience about something by watching someone doing it. C'mon, it's the same as with sexual education: not until you get a girlfriend and make love you're moving anywhere. Watching porno is no help. Same thing goes with referees: you have to be a steward to get experience in stewarding.

For example, now that you mention it, let's consider the career of Mr. Nazir Hoosein. Remember the guy? The one that was so profusely insulted here, there and everywhere when Hamilton was penalized this year at Spa? This man has been a directive at FIA's level for 10 years, he has been a member of six sporting comissions at FIA before being considered for the role of steward. Of course he has to have a local experience superior to that for him to be picked to represent his country at FIA. Now I hear he deserves to be criticized by people that clearly has never attended an event as trainee marshall.

Yes, Miguel, I haven't read the definition, but it's quite good. Thanks for the laughs. Same goes for some posts in this thread: they're funny (until you realize that many people thinks like that).

Finally, why don't you try marshalling? It's cheaper than racing...

You could invest in a Proban overall, Nomex underwear, release knive designed for cutting seat belts, Gesco scissors, which will cut everything, including steel wires, clipboards, hearing protection, lap counter, body warmer, safety glasses and badges and stickers at your local club. You HAVE to be a member of your local automobile club, and you have to volunteer. Oh, don't forget the sun blocker! And read this, you could find it interesting:

Bob Rae's Pocket Guide to Marshalling

To remind you of the responsabilities of a marshall, I quote that little wonderful booklet:

"Motorsport is a long way from being one of the most dangerous sports, but, despite all the protective measures - roll cages, helmets, seat belts, fire proof overalls, plumbed in extinguishers - high speed impacts occur, cars catch fire and people get injured.

Remember: When people are breaking the rules and safety is at stake, when you are tired and fed up, when the going gets really tough, that’s when you really need to make an extra effort to do the impossible, bite your tongue and keep everyone safe and happy."

After 10 or 15 years doing that for no pay, you could be lucky and win 6 tickets to GP races... but you have to be a hell of a guy.

[Chaparral]

Ciro you post and Im mesmerised its pure gold


The analogy of soccer is a very good one. In essence dont blame the referees or the linesman - take a look at the rules themselves - in that football game the rules are very black and white so there is very little if anything you could dispute - yes you may have a problem with a ref or linesman call but the rules are the same globally - whereas F1 rules appear to be a dogs breakfast and open to interpretation at every corner for whatever reason. Dont shoot the piano player (sorry the messenger - was just getting a plug in for a great album by a friend of mine ) - the problem isnt with the stewards or marshals its the rules plain and simple - thank you