ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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At least in rFactor. I must say, that on the Toban GP track, that the F1 car does low 1:09's, while the CCWS does low 1:10's (30 laps of fuel), so F1 is deffinately faster, but MAN, the 2005 CCWS cars just handle so much better.

My friend likened it like this:

The F1 car is like the perfect primadona balerina, while the CCWS is a down and dirty latin dancer.

I must say that I fully agree, and would love to see those designs recycled through a new series. The ChampCar deffinately gets my vote for the better car to drive for 78 laps.

Has anyone else compared these 2 car types on the same circuit?

Scotracer
Scotracer
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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Don't trust rFactor to gauge true performance, especially on a fictitious track.

The CTDP 2005 mod is not a very good one. It got much praise from the sim community for reasons I cannot even fathom. The performance of the cars is not representative of reality. The fastest I've been able to get one around Silverstone is around the 1:21 mark. This is a good 2 seconds off what they can do in reality. However, I can get the official BMW 2007/2008 cars to within 0.3 of a second of their respective times.

If you compare the 2007/2008 ISI BMW on any circuit against the CCWS cars, you will find the F1 car is more predictable, produces less snap oversteer and much less transient understeer and 4-5 seconds a lap faster on most circuits.

I do not like driving the CCWS cars I just can't be aggressive with them. they are very delicate and you cannot push them passed the limit easily. I can take the 2007 BMW by the scruff of the neck and throw it around and still get respectable times.

Conceptual, I will go try the Toban GP track now with the CTDP cars and see what I can manage. I believe I've had an F1 car in the 1:06s before.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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rFactor.. yuck.

Tire model leaves much to be desired, as do most of the mod vehicle models.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Scotracer
Scotracer
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
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Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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Yes the tyre model has a lot room to improve, it's still a lot of fun comparing cars of different forms.

I just tried Toban GP with the BMW 2008 (for some reason my CTDP 2005 is causing CTD) and did a 1:07.5 with some room to improve. That car is so good to try - I suggest you pay it some attention ;)

What peripheral do you use to control, Conceptual?
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

Jersey Tom
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Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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After iRacing, there is no goin back to rFactor.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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Scotracer wrote:Don't trust rFactor to gauge true performance, especially on a fictitious track.

The CTDP 2005 mod is not a very good one. It got much praise from the sim community for reasons I cannot even fathom. The performance of the cars is not representative of reality. The fastest I've been able to get one around Silverstone is around the 1:21 mark. This is a good 2 seconds off what they can do in reality. However, I can get the official BMW 2007/2008 cars to within 0.3 of a second of their respective times.

If you compare the 2007/2008 ISI BMW on any circuit against the CCWS cars, you will find the F1 car is more predictable, produces less snap oversteer and much less transient understeer and 4-5 seconds a lap faster on most circuits.

I do not like driving the CCWS cars I just can't be aggressive with them. they are very delicate and you cannot push them passed the limit easily. I can take the 2007 BMW by the scruff of the neck and throw it around and still get respectable times.

Conceptual, I will go try the Toban GP track now with the CTDP cars and see what I can manage. I believe I've had an F1 car in the 1:06s before.
Maybe we can exchange some setups then...

If you are pulling 106's on Toban on low fuel, that is in line with the computer on 120% difficulty and max agressiveness. When we ran the race for F12005, we actually did a 1 stopper (41 laps, then 31) so we usually set up the car to handle well on heavy fuel and hard tyres.

And the CCWS 2005 setting for Toban, Imola, Monza, and Interlagos are all within 2s of the F1 2005 times, and I must say, that "Wringing the neck" is exactly what I meant in the original post. I can beat the piss out of the CCWS 2005 car, and push it MUCH harder than the F1 car, and feel relaxed doing so, where the F1 car is nerve wracking the way that it requires perfect lap over lap to be fast, but gets catastrophic in a heartbeat.

Maybe the CCWS is simply more forgiving?

We gotta swap some setups...

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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Scotracer wrote:Yes the tyre model has a lot room to improve, it's still a lot of fun comparing cars of different forms.

I just tried Toban GP with the BMW 2008 (for some reason my CTDP 2005 is causing CTD) and did a 1:07.5 with some room to improve. That car is so good to try - I suggest you pay it some attention ;)

What peripheral do you use to control, Conceptual?
G25 wheel at friends house, FFB Playstation 2 USB clone gamepad at home.

The 2007/8 cars are fine I guess, we got bored with them a few months ago however. Now it is F1 2005, CCWS 2005, Porche Fabcar, and some rally stuff.

And yes Jersey Tom, a Direct X 10 upgrade on the graphical side, as well as a Crossfire physics plugin would be spectacular!

Exactly how could the tyre system improve? I have seen the spreadsheet of slip angles, but the only thing that I can think of that would make it any better would be to also have a Crossfire plugin that would do real-time FEA on each tyre.

I would really like to know how you think it could improve.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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Jersey Tom wrote:After iRacing, there is no goin back to rFactor.
Dude, for $156/yr, I would rather stick to rFactor. I am not very impressed, but a 30 day trial may go a long way to changing my mind, but for $40, rFactor is hard to beat.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbAC-PV3 ... re=related[/youtube]


WOW, the more that I learn about this iRacing, the more it turns me off. Pay $20 for a 30 day membership (auto recurring) and you get 2 cars and 8 tracks...And the guy even says in the vid that it will take you MONTHS to progress past this level (at $20/mo)...

I will wait for rFactor to upgrade to DX10 and a mod team to do the Crossfire physics. All for the $40 that I already paid...

I'm glad that you like it tho, and thanks for the heads up, but it doesn't seem worth the money, especially auto recurring charges for the same sim...

Scotracer
Scotracer
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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rFactor uses a Pacejka-like tyre model whereas most of the top sims have their own proprietary tyre models. Pacejka is a fairly standard model as it's reasonably accurate, easy to use and is solved quickly - reducing processor loading. Still, that does not make it accurate enough for everyone.

I've tried iRacing and whilst it's definitely accurate and looks great, the lack of vehicles just puts me off paying for it. The Radical and Formula Mazda are the only ones I have any interest in and even then, a lot of the tracks on offer are Ovals. One issue I've found with the game is that I cannot get the clutch to work properly with my G25 - I can use the clutch if I choose but it automatically engages at low speed (i.e. it's impossible to stall the car).

I love both but rFactor is more fun as it offers just about every type of car and track.

Conceptual: I'd be happy to give you some setup data for F1 cars (I mainly use the ISI cars however) but when I gave my setup I had worked on for a while to a friend he didn't like it much - I have a similar driving style to Alonso; I like a good turn in and getting on the power early with a fair amount of traction control. So, if you don't like that sort of style it wont be much use to you. My driving style allows me to be VERY aggressive and still be consistent.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

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slimjim8201
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 06:02

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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Best tire simulation out there...Live for Speed. Download the trial and see for yourself...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAvj0iY1Zig[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0ABK1g3mjg[/youtube]

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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I've played LFS... the handling isn't bad. I particularly liked that they had a FSAE car in there.

But the tires and vehicle feel in iRacing are just as good or better.

Only thing I question is how damn load sensitive the tires are.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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Scotracer wrote:rFactor uses a Pacejka-like tyre model whereas most of the top sims have their own proprietary tyre models. Pacejka is a fairly standard model as it's reasonably accurate, easy to use and is solved quickly - reducing processor loading. Still, that does not make it accurate enough for everyone.

I've tried iRacing and whilst it's definitely accurate and looks great, the lack of vehicles just puts me off paying for it. The Radical and Formula Mazda are the only ones I have any interest in and even then, a lot of the tracks on offer are Ovals. One issue I've found with the game is that I cannot get the clutch to work properly with my G25 - I can use the clutch if I choose but it automatically engages at low speed (i.e. it's impossible to stall the car).

I love both but rFactor is more fun as it offers just about every type of car and track.

Conceptual: I'd be happy to give you some setup data for F1 cars (I mainly use the ISI cars however) but when I gave my setup I had worked on for a while to a friend he didn't like it much - I have a similar driving style to Alonso; I like a good turn in and getting on the power early with a fair amount of traction control. So, if you don't like that sort of style it wont be much use to you. My driving style allows me to be VERY aggressive and still be consistent.

Aah, we don't use TC or ABS on any car/track, the only driver aid we use is the auto-clutch. Maybe that is why the 2007 F1 cars feel so damn needle-point.

I guess the times aren't too bad then. Although a few of our setups without these "driver aids" might surprise you. PM me your email address Scot, and I'll send some across for you, since I just transferred them from my friends computer to mine, so I still have the.rar file.

Thanks!

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
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Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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Conceptual, I don't really see a point driving a car that was designed to be used with sertain set of driver aids without any. I mean in reality F1 had TC in 2005 so you should have made your comparisson using it.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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modbaraban wrote:Conceptual, I don't really see a point driving a car that was designed to be used with sertain set of driver aids without any. I mean in reality F1 had TC in 2005 so you should have made your comparisson using it.
I think the comparison was done for taste, not for any thing else.

I don't see any reason why I "should" use TC on any car, if I prefer to set it up so as not to need it.

I have no clue if the 2005 CCWS cars had TC or not, but once again, it handles wonderfully without it.

I don't really understand the point of your post either. Why "should" I follow the real life regulations when they are both cars in a video game? I didn't even imply that this was the case in reality, so what is your issue?

modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
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Re: ChampCar 2005 > F1 2005

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Rreading the thread name (btw located in 'other racing series') made me think you'd want to compare 2 real racing series, not just play around with 'cars in a video game'.

Maybe I'm stupid. So that's my issue apparently. Hope you're alright with that :wink:

cheers.