What race class to choose?

[Pachoba]

Hello,
I can not decide make race class. It will be drivers competition, but teams going to made their cars construct themselves(safety going to check in crash test, that nobody die or hurt). It will be cheaper race class as Formula Renault 2.0 or FIA GT 4.

It is two ways:
1.) Open wheel category(as Euroseries Formula 3, Formula Renault 2.0, ...)
2.) Purpose build cars(as DTM cars, with difference our cars dimensions and shape as BMW Z4, Chrysler Firepower, Audi TT, ...)

Some rules for both:
steel tube space frame, about 2.0 litre 300hp engine, 6 or 7 level gearbox(sequential or paddleshift), no double diffuser, no f-duct system, no adjustable front/rear wing, brakes no carbon but ceramic - more battles on brakes, simply cheap technique...
Speed until 280km/h.

This result should be my choice(I do not know who will better ensure this result):
This racing will offer viewers the show and battles on the track and for drivers exciting and adrenaline. Here is no spin big money. Here love to the racing win.
I think it might be good for college students and small public teams(if the price available).

What do you think? What I select? Which is better?
This may have the future?
Please all remarks write here. Thanks.

[marcush.]

Hello,
I can not decide make race class. It will be drivers competition, but teams going to made their cars construct themselves(safety going to check in crash test, that nobody die or hurt). It will be cheaper race class as Formula Renault 2.0 or FIA GT 4.

It is two ways:
1.) Open wheel category(as Euroseries Formula 3, Formula Renault 2.0, ...)
2.) Purpose build cars(as DTM cars, with difference our cars dimensions and shape as BMW Z4, Chrysler Firepower, Audi TT, ...)

Some rules for both:
steel tube space frame, about 2.0 litre 300hp engine, 6 or 7 level gearbox(sequential or paddleshift), no double diffuser, no f-duct system, no adjustable front/rear wing, brakes no carbon but ceramic - more battles on brakes, simply cheap technique...
Speed until 280km/h.

This result should be my choice(I do not know who will better ensure this result):
This racing will offer viewers the show and battles on the track and for drivers exciting and adrenaline. Here is no spin big money. Here love to the racing win.
I think it might be good for college students and small public teams(if the price available).

What do you think? What I select? Which is better?
This may have the future?
Please all remarks write here. Thanks.

I´m pretty sure a singleseater will be easier in everything and cheaper potentially.
The less bits the better ..GT type racing will involve of course huge panels,transportation lots of extra parts that do not really contribute to racing.

[747heavy]

I think Marcus makes some good points.
On the other hand, a Formula car (open wheeler) without wings looks rather dull.
It´s like Formula Ford, with a bigger engine.
On a Touring/Sports car you would have more sponsor area, and the people can identify better with a "car".
I think for what you would like to do, a space frame car with a fibre glass body shell, would make sense.
Along the lines of the V8STAR cars.
But, to make it different, as you say, maybe base it on cabriolets/Roadstes, like Audi TT, BMW Z3/4 etc. That means people can identify with "their" cars.

Renault had something some years back, the Renault Spider Cup. At the time, this races where really good and fun to watch.

A KTM crossbow is very close to what you want to do - IMO
There are also some sports car classes which are close to your idea.
Something like a Radical for example.



KTM Crossbox



Radical

[marcush.]

Of course ...if you start to base your racing on something available..you could use an Elise type car...and go from there.. but the cost ..as with the KTM or Norma,Radical etc will explode.

in USA there is some racing with sportscars ...DSR unfortunatelly their site seems to be down at this time.. but some examples:

http://www.galmerinc.com/galmer_dsr.htm
http://www.racingconcepts.info/docs/rs07.pdf


Elise s2 Rolling chassis

Evora chassis


the elise chassis is silly because the front is easily damaged beyond repair ..but maybe the evora would be ok..as a starting point for a GT .

[747heavy]

I did not mean to use a existing chassis, just brought it up a an example.

There are about 15 chassis of an defunct Renault series (like the Super Maxi)
available in Brazil, complete with engines and some other gear.

But Marcus made a good point again. You need to design the car with sufficient/good
crash zones in mind.
So that when you have an accident/impact only "cheap" parts suffer, and need to be replaced - no structural damage to your chassis .
make your bodywork modular if you can, so that you can easy and cheaply repair/replace single parts - like a quarter panel, front/rear bumper/guards etc. and don´t need complete front/rear modules as spare. Don´t make it DTM style bodywork.
Use "cheap" but effective crash boxes/structures front and rear, and at the sides iff possible. Try to get the radiators out of the impact zones.

[marcush.]

ok ..my idea was of course to use something along the lines of lotus chassis prduction,maybe even honeycomb M-Board construction..instead of expensive extrusions.that could be a very cheap method of building a very stiff chassis and if its build in a modular way repairs should always be feasible to keep running cost in check.

[747heavy]

this was the Super Clio, they used in Brazil:



now they have something like this, it´s called Copa Spyder:



the chassis is very similar to the Super Clio chassis
The Super clio had better suspension



the kit chassis (rolling) cost ~13000 Euro
more info here, if you are interested

http://www.spyderrace.com.br/index.php

[Pachoba]

Circuit type: permanent road course(circuits)
Place: Europe

I thinking the following:

Prototype racing
you must have the best technique and professional driver. It is very expensive. Smaller series for example Radical cars cup is existing. This means that option is closed.

Stock cars
In europe is stock car racing little popular. In France exist RACE CAR SERIES, where winner is testing NASCAR stock car. This means that option is closed even if the price is accessible(is said that stock cars are the least expensive).

Touring cars
You must buy expensive car(BMW, Seat, and etc.) and disembowel its guts (interior). This cars is heavy weight too.
I think it is a pity destroy new beautiful good car(in the europe is the most affordable this system). This means that option is closed.

GT
GT cars what to use FIA GT1/GT2/GT3 is unthinkable(Aston Martin, Corvette, ...). These cars cost the most money.

Purpose build cars
DTM cars is good example or New Brazilian Stock Cars are build with technic DTM. Space frame and carbon pannels. New Brazilian Stock Cars are worth 3 million(new piece - around without engine).
Here you can reduce costs. I do not use carbon fiber but glassfibre, no big V8 but turbo inline four-cylinder. Therefore also consider the category.

Open Wheels
The famous category arround the world. Here is very many opportunities for speculation, of steel tube space frame to the carbon fiber. Therefore also consider the category.

Other
For example Caterham(Locost) is good cars, but you must buy donor car(they are less and less). In addition, for the price you can also build an open wheel car(example Formula 1000). This means that option is closed.

I must select exciting for viewers, drivers and constructors.

Other possible rules to increase competitiveness and reduce costs:
-fuel tank size is limited on 2/3 pit-stops per race (fuel tank through a special vessel)
-possible use carburetor (very light weight and easy fuel system)
-reduce team peoples and mechanics in pit stop
-race be organised with cooperation bigger race series(for example with national grand prix touring cars)
-approximately rebuild an engine and gearbox after 1 season
-control tire sets(restrict maximum number of tire sets per weekend)

I think 280 km/h is good on start(maybe and it is much on steel space frame). More kilometers per hour not help steel space frame. For more speed I need carbon monocoque, which prices have increased by more.

to marcush.:
What do you think of extra parts which do not contribute to racing in GT?

to 747heavy:
I want to car in open wheel category with front and rear wing.
Yes, example is V8STAR, DTM, NEW BRAZIL STOCK CARS, but no cabrio. I want to full roof(If it is a purpose build race car).
Oh, I think BMW Z4, Audi TT,... with full roof(than race 24 hours in Dubai been).
Sorry, I can choose only between open wheels or purpose build cars. KTM does not satisfy me, competed in the FIA GT4.

Yes, question about safety
I want to have the most secure car. Excessively safe if hit.
Formula one tested hit on stabil obstacle in 60km/h(I think). People think it is little, because Formula one go more than 300km/h. Mechanic Formula one say: it is "stabil obstacle. On the circuit are barriers designed to absorb impact."
I will be tested hit on stabil obstacle in 90km/h(deceleration must be less than half of the Formula 1, driver to not tear the head).
All on the safety.

I look at your other posts and comment...

[marcush.]

I think there are two options really .

a)along the lines:Daytona prototype/DTM/V8star with body resembling a normal car

b) single seater Fford/Supervee/Formula Barber/Atlantic

The Full enclosed car will need to have more parts -Bodywork -and ancilliary parts ....lights,wiper,vents ,door hinges,locks -you name it.This is for sure expensive.

[Pachoba]

I think there are two options really .

a)along the lines:Daytona prototype/DTM/V8star with body resembling a normal car

b) single seater Fford/Supervee/Formula Barber/Atlantic

The Full enclosed car will need to have more parts -Bodywork -and ancilliary parts ....lights,wiper,vents ,door hinges,locks -you name it.This is for sure expensive.

Yes, two options. Bad is that I can realise only take one.
Single seater has a disadvantage in collisions(hit) but can go faster. It has better aerodynamics. Full enclosed car is slower but better collision protection.

Your references look good.

I do not think that the full enclosed car is more expensive. In racecar don´t need professional brand parts(for example BMW door hinges-make the aluminium hole and pivot+forelock)

hmm, I do not know what to choose...
What is better for the viewer?

[747heavy]

o.k. first, I know it is not important, but a Brazil StockCar does not cost 3 Million US$ or Euro.
I don´t know what currency you talk in.
But apart from the gearbox a StockCar is very cheap, by all current standards.

300 hp will not make you go 280 Km/h with a Touring/GT type bodyshell., even in a very lightweight car.
I don´t think, that topspeed is all that important for good racing.
Higher speed, just makes it more dangerous.

I would not use carburrators, you will be hard pressed to make 300Hp out of a 2 ltr. engine with a carburrator.
Carburrator on a turbo engine is difficult.
It is stone age technology, with loads of drawbacks.
StockCar Brazil have used Carburrator engines until this year, but V8 small block GM engines.

For cost reasons I would use a 1.8-2.0 ltr. production engine with turbo, and a bit of chip tuning, and standard ECU - like a Audi TT engine or something similar.
They will make 300 hp no problem, and normally will last a season.
I don´t think, you can get a 300hp engine much cheaper, then that.

Pitstops with refueling, will just add costs, I don´t think it is really needed.
But it´s up to you.

There are many open wheel racing series, so another one will be hard to "sell" to sponsors and the public.
What will be better/different in your series then in F3, Formula Renault 2000, etc.

The same goes for the Touring car model, this is why I said use a roadster/cabrio type of bodyshell, because it is different, and could attract a different fan base.
But it´s up to you.

If you want high impact safety, you will need "space" to absorb the impact, this will make the car larger.

What is your target price, and where should the car be built.?
Have a lock at an Audi DTM chassis or better on the new Brazilian StockCar.
The space frame chassis is made only from straight tubes.
Easy and cheap to manufacture.
Because you can pre-laser cut all the tubes - cheap production.

But this is not conform with FIA spec´s, so if you need/want FIA appoval for your series, you need a bend main roll hoop.

[747heavy]

Marcus makes a good point.
A close car, has some "problems" when you race in the rain.
You need wipers, and foging up of screens is a problem.
If you race in the summer/hot climate, you have problems with heat inside the closed car.

A open wheel car, has no better aero/drag then a closed wheel car.
A LMP car with the same power is much faster then a F1/Indy car, but straight line speed is not important - IMHO.

[marcush.]

spectators?
how do you plan to attract people?
Even professional LMP racing needs LeMans to attract big crouds..a LMP race at The Nurburgring you can count the people using your own two hands only...

Touringcar ,DTM are marketing driven most people get incentive tickets and big pr is dished out.
the second possibility is to go with an attractive package =F1 ,DTM,Touringcars...
the third is accept to drive in front of empty grandstands..

[Pachoba]

It is true, that carburetor is overcome other systems especially direct injection. I think the best system for race engine is injection before valves. Direct injection is to save fuel and unnecessarily expensive.

life approximately 4500km(one season):
Atmospheric 2.0L=300hp
Atmospheric 3.0L=450hp
Atmospheric 4.0L=600hp(GP2 engine)
Turbo engine = hp by setting pressure

I think these Brazil stockcars:

Code: Select all

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/videos/381932/inside-the-stockcars-of-copa-nextel.html

Sorry, I forget calculate in my currency. It is 220 000 USD(172 000 EUR) for complete car.

My goal is somewhere to 30000EUR + engine

Race be organised with cooperation bigger race series(for example with national touring cars championship). Race in front of empty grandstands - only first tests.

[747heavy]

I have worked in Brazil StockCar, so I know what you mean and what the cars cost.

300 hp with a NA 2 ltr engine is quite a lot, it´s like WTCC engine, very expensive, and
you need some rebuilds in the season. - IMHO

the sound will be better, but I think a 1.8-2.0 ltr road car turbo engine is the cheaper/better solution.
You can try to get the engines as sponsoring from a OEM.

You will also need to thibk about the gearbox. A 6 or 7 speed gearbox with pedalshift is not cheap. A good racing gearbox will cost half the price you want to have for your whole car.

for this price you will end up with something like Brazil Super Clio or the Super Spyder chassis now.
As I said the complete Super Spyder without engine sells for 13 000 Euro in Brazil.

this are some photos of the StockCar chassis: