2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

[El Scorchio]

Much better.

A simple insight would've given them +25 points. I disappointed in the team that this wasn't foreseen in the design process of that component.

There are still ergonomic mistakes that get uncovered on airplanes that have been flying for 20 years. Never showed themselves to be a problem until the holes in the cheese line up perfectly to produce a sub-optimal outcome. It only then gets fixed.

Quite right. You don't know if something can go wrong until it demonstrates it can go wrong.

[Shrieker]

I mean, come on guys. This one's a slam dunk. Someone in that team should've been more than capable of asking, "but what happens if there's an accidental press ?".

[JPower]

I mean, come on guys. This one's a slam dunk. Someone in that team should've been more than capable of asking, "but what happens if there's an accidental press ?".

If your driver hasn't had an issue with it over 8 years, 150+ races and testing events, I think it would be pretty easy to forget about.

[PlatinumZealot]

I mean, come on guys. This one's a slam dunk. Someone in that team should've been more than capable of asking, "but what happens if there's an accidental press ?".

The designer was probably one of those left-brained engineering nerds that has never played a sport or a video game for that matter. It's ridiculous that such a momentarily required thing was set to "toggle" to last an entire lap. Crazy. Thank God common sense prevailed someone revised it.

[101FlyingDutchman]

I mean, come on guys. This one's a slam dunk. Someone in that team should've been more than capable of asking, "but what happens if there's an accidental press ?".

If your driver hasn't had an issue with it over 8 years, 150+ races and testing events, I think it would be pretty easy to forget about.

Quite right. I remember on the 737s I operated in the early ‘00s, the switches for the hydraulic systems were of the same shape and size and directly located above the engine anti ice on the overhead panel. Wasn’t an issue for years until somebody one day turned off the hydraulics as part of a test flight profile, with the trim tab on the elevator by accident put out of neutral during a maintenance action (but masked by having hydraulics in flight)
Aircraft departed level flight, broke MMO and Vmo (max speeds) during recovery, which they managed but lost 25000ft in altitude in the process.

You just don’t know sometimes, as obvious it may seem for us Captains Hindsight

[Shrieker]

Quite right. I remember on the 737s I operated in the early ‘00s, the switches for the hydraulic systems were of the same shape and size and directly located above the engine anti ice on the overhead panel. Wasn’t an issue for years until somebody one day turned off the hydraulics as part of a test flight profile, with the trim tab on the elevator by accident put out of neutral during a maintenance action (but masked by having hydraulics in flight)
Aircraft departed level flight, broke MMO and Vmo (max speeds) during recovery, which they managed but lost 25000ft in altitude in the process.

I wonder whether AI thru generative adversarial networks will come into play to look into these possibilities in the future. Now that may be fascinating.

[SiLo]

Surprised their implementation wasn't to just use a button on the steering wheel as a confirm button for certain things that drastically alter vehicle behaviour, such as brake magic.

[dans79]

Surprised their implementation wasn't to just use a button on the steering wheel as a confirm button for certain things that drastically alter vehicle behaviour, such as brake magic.

The wheels are already jam packed with buttons and knobs. Not to mention in some corner sequences the drivers are barely looking at the track anymore as they quickly adjust half a dozen things for the next corner. This was one of those edge cases that know one thinks about until it actually causes a problem.

[Gillian]

Quite right. I remember on the 737s I operated in the early ‘00s, the switches for the hydraulic systems were of the same shape and size and directly located above the engine anti ice on the overhead panel. Wasn’t an issue for years until somebody one day turned off the hydraulics as part of a test flight profile, with the trim tab on the elevator by accident put out of neutral during a maintenance action (but masked by having hydraulics in flight)
Aircraft departed level flight, broke MMO and Vmo (max speeds) during recovery, which they managed but lost 25000ft in altitude in the process.

I wonder whether AI thru generative adversarial networks will come into play to look into these possibilities in the future. Now that may be fascinating.

I am an engineer and I could be mistaken but I feel like the IT in F1 is in some ways not very advanced at all. Data gathering and analysing happens a lot sure... But the tech used is probably not bleeding edge. I think same goes for testing methodologies. I only have a very little bit inside information so I won't pretend to know a lot but it surely feels to me like it's all a bit stuck in the 90's. Make a wheel, drop it in the car and do some exploratory testing (I'm exaggerating I know).

I know a F1 steering wheel is complex, but it surely isn't anything compared to the tools of an airplane!? And we are not even discussing anything complex. Its basic UX. Some boundary testing/edge case testing or similar could find these issues.

I can see why it is what it is though. Time is money and time is limited so don't fix it if it ain't broken. That's exactly the feeling I get about what happened here.

[RZS10]

Surprised their implementation wasn't to just use a button on the steering wheel as a confirm button for certain things that drastically alter vehicle behaviour, such as brake magic.

The wheels are already jam packed with buttons and knobs. Not to mention in some corner sequences the drivers are barely looking at the track anymore as they quickly adjust half a dozen things for the next corner. This was one of those edge cases that know one thinks about until it actually causes a problem.

Didn't they say that Bottas has magic on the face of the wheel (?) , probably has some other function at the back.

[Gillian]

I mean, come on guys. This one's a slam dunk. Someone in that team should've been more than capable of asking, "but what happens if there's an accidental press ?".

The designer was probably one of those left-brained engineering nerds that has never played a sport or a video game for that matter. It's ridiculous that such a momentarily required thing was set to "toggle" to last an entire lap. Crazy. Thank God common sense prevailed someone revised it.

What is more stupid to you, the left brained engineering nerd who designed it, his colleagues who apparently never gave it some thought either or the user who didn't think it would be an issue?

There is a reason why there are developers and testers and even in the world of agile multi disciplinary bla bla its not done for an engineer to test his own work. Something really daft to an outsider can be totally invisible to an engineer.

[PlatinumZealot]

I mean, come on guys. This one's a slam dunk. Someone in that team should've been more than capable of asking, "but what happens if there's an accidental press ?".

The designer was probably one of those left-brained engineering nerds that has never played a sport or a video game for that matter. It's ridiculous that such a momentarily required thing was set to "toggle" to last an entire lap. Crazy. Thank God common sense prevailed someone revised it.

What is more stupid to you, the left brained engineering nerd who designed it, his colleagues who apparently never gave it some thought either or the user who didn't think it would be an issue?

There is a reason why there are developers and testers and even in the world of agile multi disciplinary bla bla its not done for an engineer to test his own work. Something really daft to an outsider can be totally invisible to an engineer.

Not exactly true. I used to design production (well I still do as a side hustle) and there are somethings you never think of. That is how machines operators find odd ways of using equipment. But other than that, you always try to imagine yourself using the equipment at line speeds in the design phase, way before protyping /trial testing with operators.

During testing, some operators will take what you say as Gospel but some will challenge your methods. Others will find new faults and then request changes. That said if the engineer can imagine many scenarios earlier the better.

For the steering wheel, I think it could have been tested in virtual racing conditions in the simulator or somevideo game or the like. But normally press and hold is prefered over toggle when it comes to altering behaviour, for the very same reason of the user forgetting what position the toggle was in, or accientally pushing the toggle. In production equipment we do not toggle certaint actions for safety reason...(say machine jog, whete the user has to press and hold).

[Hammerfist]

Surprised their implementation wasn't to just use a button on the steering wheel as a confirm button for certain things that drastically alter vehicle behaviour, such as brake magic.

The wheels are already jam packed with buttons and knobs. Not to mention in some corner sequences the drivers are barely looking at the track anymore as they quickly adjust half a dozen things for the next corner. This was one of those edge cases that know one thinks about until it actually causes a problem.

Didn't they say that Bottas has magic on the face of the wheel (?) , probably has some other function at the back.

Yes, Bottas's magic button is on the main wheel interface. Hamilton was the one who chose to have his at the back of the wheel.

[adrianjordan]

... FWIW the team should back their best driver or at least put it in his hands in a better car to get past Perez ...

The team DID back their best driver when he said that he could stay out. The only one who dithered was Lewis. If he'd have come in when the team told him to in the first place he would have very possibly have been on the podium, he didn't, he argued with them for several laps.

That's 2 races in a row now where a driver has overruled his team and paid the price. Yet in both circumstances, the team gets blamed by fans...??

[El Scorchio]

... FWIW the team should back their best driver or at least put it in his hands in a better car to get past Perez ...

The team DID back their best driver when he said that he could stay out. The only one who dithered was Lewis. If he'd have come in when the team told him to in the first place he would have very possibly have been on the podium, he didn't, he argued with them for several laps.

That's 2 races in a row now where a driver has overruled his team and paid the price. Yet in both circumstances, the team gets blamed by fans...??

He doesn't know the full picture from in the cockpit. He only knows how he is getting on and how he feels with the tyres at that moment, so I'd not say he was dithering- just that he was comfortable with his own pace and the feel of the tyres. Obviously we don't hear everything, but it seemed to me like he was unaware that by doing that he was getting into that position. It's where the team have to fill him in on the bigger picture of the race which (at least from what we hear) they don't always seem to do fully or convincingly. If they'd have said 'we need to mirror Perez or you'll lose places- you WILL be able to overtake him on track on new tyres' then he's obviously going to come in. Or even if it's not strictly true, say 'These tyres won't last until the end of the race'. It probably is difficult for the team to overrule someone like him given his experience and that his instincts are usually correct- and for him then it becomes hard to trust their judgement when they have made bad calls several times in the past and cost him points.

You are probably right that the fault lies a little between them, (we are also talking about 'backing' in slightly different terms) but the team has to make it crystal clear to him what the situation is and what the ramifications are of staying out or going in are. We can't know exactly what was said, but from what we did hear, they hardly put a convincing argument forward to him for coming in, even when it was obvious from the timings that it was the wrong call.