2021 United States Grand Prix - Austin, Oct 22 - 24

[Mogster]

They are routinely taking different lines through T1, the traditional apex doesn’t always seem to be involved. The incident did seem to be precipitated by Verstappen overtaking Hamilton.

If the intention was to press Verstappen’s buttons (I’m sure it was) it certainly seemed to work like a charm. Max was shouting and swearing on the radio for the rest of the session… I’m sure Merc will be replaying Max’s radio ranting at their private debrief.

[AriaanGert]

They are routinely taking different lines through T1, the traditional apex doesn’t always seem to be involved. The incident did seem to be precipitated by Verstappen overtaking Hamilton.

If the intention was to press Verstappen’s buttons (I’m sure it was) it certainly seemed to work like a charm. Max was shouting and swearing on the radio for the rest of the session… I’m sure Merc will be replaying Max’s radio ranting at their private debrief.

I have no doubts you're right about the smiles at the Merc debrief.
But I meant the last corner, at the beginning of the lap (so T20 not T1). I tried to check, but I couldn't find anybody that missed that apex before a quick lap. check the onboards and you'll see.

[godlameroso]

Verstappen was frustrated that much like Bahrain, he couldn't get a single good lap. Hopefully qualifying pans out as it did then, and hopefully Hamilton tries the one stop once again.

[Starkblood80]

They are routinely taking different lines through T1, the traditional apex doesn’t always seem to be involved. The incident did seem to be precipitated by Verstappen overtaking Hamilton.

If the intention was to press Verstappen’s buttons (I’m sure it was) it certainly seemed to work like a charm. Max was shouting and swearing on the radio for the rest of the session… I’m sure Merc will be replaying Max’s radio ranting at their private debrief.

I can’t help but think Hamilton was laughing, knowing he was probably winding max up.

[nzjrs]

I'm picking Merc 0.5 ahead of RB in Q3 and 0.9 ahead of Perez. I think they were sandbagging in P2 after the 1s ahead in P1 brought too much of the spotlight on them.

[cooken]

Max came past Lewis, since he drove slow and wide into a corner. Max then slowed down due to the car infront being slow. Lewis locked his brakes and must have got his blood pressure up as well as then he drove past Max, drove into him wide into corner jet again and then continued with pushing him off the track, then accelerating side by side and again pushing for the corner.

False. Lewis slowed down due to the car in front being slow, he caught up to the AT at the slow hairpin and queued in behind him. Max then lunged up the inside. What you wrote is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

Let's not pretend either of them are saints. It was childish tit for tat regardless of who did what first.

[cooken]

Blasted double posts...

[Hoffman900]

Hmm, apparently Ferrari and Red Bull are considering a protest if the Mercedes' suspension constitutes some kind of movable aerodynamic device ala the mass damper which was banned on those grounds.

Source? I'd like to think on this site if people throw stuff like this out there, they can back it up with a legitimate source. Throw in "apparently" and naming no source, just sounds like politicking on your side to me...Searching anyone of these: "Mercedes protest" "Ferrari protest" "RedBull protest" "protest COTA", etc. in Google with a 24hr filter finds nothing.

It would also be the dumbest protest in history... if the FIA requires rake to be fixed from static to dynamic, RedBull is absolutely f**ked (so would be any other high rake concept). It won't happen because that's impossible and they ALL do it. As Scarbs pointed out this is 1) an old trick 2) they all do it to varying degress 3) the FIA absolutely knows about it, has talked about it, and has decided they're okay with it.. at least until the new cars.

[proteus]

Max came past Lewis, since he drove slow and wide into a corner. Max then slowed down due to the car infront being slow. Lewis locked his brakes and must have got his blood pressure up as well as then he drove past Max, drove into him wide into corner jet again and then continued with pushing him off the track, then accelerating side by side and again pushing for the corner.

False. Lewis slowed down due to the car in front being slow, he caught up to the AT at the slow hairpin and queued in behind him. Max then lunged up the inside. What you wrote is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

Let's not pretend either of them are saints. It was childish tit for tat regardless of who did what first.

He took the corner wide and slow. But i agree they both are acting like children.

[JordanMugen]

Hmm, apparently Ferrari and Red Bull are considering a protest if the Mercedes' suspension constitutes some kind of movable aerodynamic device ala the mass damper which was banned on those grounds.

Source? I'd like to think on this site if people throw stuff like this out there, they can back it up with a legitimate source. Throw in "apparently" and naming no source, just sounds like politicking on your side to me...

It would also be the dumbest protest in history... if the FIA requires rake to be fixed from static to dynamic, RedBull is absolutely f**ked (so would be any other high rake concept). It won't happen because that's impossible and they ALL do it. As Scarbs pointed out this is 1) an old trick 2) they all do it to varying degress 3) the FIA absolutely knows about it, has talked about it, and has decided they're okay with it.. at least until the new cars.

Politics from my side? It's a rumour on a forum, nothing official about it.

The mass-damper was obviously banned on the precedent of being a movable aerodynamic device, so suspension can be considered part of the aerodynamics. Depending on how it works, no one knows if it is fully legal yet -- if it is a system of springs obviously that would be legal, but if it was some kind of hydraulic actuator that causes it to raise and lower ala old hydroactive Citroen or hydralast Rover that wouldn't necessarily be legal, depending on how it works.

Remember how Red Bull in the Webber-Vettel era were questioned about how their car could run so low in qualifying without collapsing when race fuel was added?

[Hoffman900]

Hmm, apparently Ferrari and Red Bull are considering a protest if the Mercedes' suspension constitutes some kind of movable aerodynamic device ala the mass damper which was banned on those grounds.

Source? I'd like to think on this site if people throw stuff like this out there, they can back it up with a legitimate source. Throw in "apparently" and naming no source, just sounds like politicking on your side to me...

It would also be the dumbest protest in history... if the FIA requires rake to be fixed from static to dynamic, RedBull is absolutely f**ked (so would be any other high rake concept). It won't happen because that's impossible and they ALL do it. As Scarbs pointed out this is 1) an old trick 2) they all do it to varying degress 3) the FIA absolutely knows about it, has talked about it, and has decided they're okay with it.. at least until the new cars.

Politics from my side? It's a rumour on a forum, nothing official about it.

The mass-damper was obviously banned on the precedent of being a movable aerodynamic device, so suspension can be considered part of the aerodynamics. Depending on how it works, no one knows if it is fully legal yet.

So state rumor, act like it's official, and when push comes to shove, reveal it's just a rumor from a forum. Got it

The suspension has been as long as they have used pushrods and decoupled heave from roll. Furthermore, even in a traditional non-pushrod suspension, this can be manipulated, as NASCAR has done for 25 years now.

[TimW]

Hmm, apparently Ferrari and Red Bull are considering a protest if the Mercedes' suspension constitutes some kind of movable aerodynamic device ala the mass damper which was banned on those grounds.

Source? I'd like to think on this site if people throw stuff like this out there, they can back it up with a legitimate source. Throw in "apparently" and naming no source, just sounds like politicking on your side to me...Searching anyone of these: "Mercedes protest" "Ferrari protest" "RedBull protest" "protest COTA", etc. in Google with a 24hr filter finds nothing.

It would also be the dumbest protest in history... if the FIA requires rake to be fixed from static to dynamic, RedBull is absolutely f**ked (so would be any other high rake concept). It won't happen because that's impossible and they ALL do it. As Scarbs pointed out this is 1) an old trick 2) they all do it to varying degress 3) the FIA absolutely knows about it, has talked about it, and has decided they're okay with it.. at least until the new cars.

It is not as black and white as that. The way Scarbs describes it they use a valve that opens at a set speed and closes with a set hysteresis. Basically that is a very simple logic circuit. By that you are entering a grey area. You could expand that(maybe they already did) with more valves to create a basic logic circuit, and that way you are creating an hydraulic computer.

The thing is that with hydraulics valves you can also build an active suspension. That is why FRIC was banned, because it had developed into an active suspension. E.g have interia operated valves that detects is you are cornering, ,or increase ride height when it is bumpy....

[JordanMugen]

Hmm, apparently Ferrari and Red Bull are considering a protest if the Mercedes' suspension constitutes some kind of movable aerodynamic device ala the mass damper which was banned on those grounds.

Source? I'd like to think on this site if people throw stuff like this out there, they can back it up with a legitimate source. Throw in "apparently" and naming no source, just sounds like politicking on your side to me...Searching anyone of these: "Mercedes protest" "Ferrari protest" "RedBull protest" "protest COTA", etc. in Google with a 24hr filter finds nothing.

It would also be the dumbest protest in history... if the FIA requires rake to be fixed from static to dynamic, RedBull is absolutely f**ked (so would be any other high rake concept). It won't happen because that's impossible and they ALL do it. As Scarbs pointed out this is 1) an old trick 2) they all do it to varying degress 3) the FIA absolutely knows about it, has talked about it, and has decided they're okay with it.. at least until the new cars.

It is not as black and white as that. The way Scarbs describes it they use a valve that opens at a set speed and closes with a set hysteresis. Basically that is a very simple logic circuit. By that you are entering a grey area. You could expand that(maybe they already did) with more valves to create a basic logic circuit, and that way you are creating an hydraulic computer.

The thing is that with hydraulics valves you can also build an active suspension. That is why FRIC was banned, because it had developed into an active suspension. E.g have interia operated valves that detects is you are cornering, ,or increase ride height when it is bumpy....

If true that seems dodgy. The FIA made this note about suspension systems:

Whiting replied to Ferrari that he considered such a device would fall foul of regulation 3.15 (concerning whether a component or system is ‘wholly incidental to the main purpose of the suspension system’ or ‘have been contrived to directly affect the aerodynamic performance of the car’)

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... 7-f1-title

It can be argued the conventional quite linear soft rear spring improves traction and therefore has a primary suspension function, whereas a collapsible heave element that suddenly drops the rear of the car seems to be designed purely for aerodynamics.

[Hoffman900]

Hmm, apparently Ferrari and Red Bull are considering a protest if the Mercedes' suspension constitutes some kind of movable aerodynamic device ala the mass damper which was banned on those grounds.

Source? I'd like to think on this site if people throw stuff like this out there, they can back it up with a legitimate source. Throw in "apparently" and naming no source, just sounds like politicking on your side to me...Searching anyone of these: "Mercedes protest" "Ferrari protest" "RedBull protest" "protest COTA", etc. in Google with a 24hr filter finds nothing.

It would also be the dumbest protest in history... if the FIA requires rake to be fixed from static to dynamic, RedBull is absolutely f**ked (so would be any other high rake concept). It won't happen because that's impossible and they ALL do it. As Scarbs pointed out this is 1) an old trick 2) they all do it to varying degress 3) the FIA absolutely knows about it, has talked about it, and has decided they're okay with it.. at least until the new cars.

It is not as black and white as that. The way Scarbs describes it they use a valve that opens at a set speed and closes with a set hysteresis. Basically that is a very simple logic circuit. By that you are entering a grey area. You could expand that(maybe they already did) with more valves to create a basic logic circuit, and that way you are creating an hydraulic computer.

The thing is that with hydraulics valves you can also build an active suspension. That is why FRIC was banned, because it had developed into an active suspension. E.g have interia operated valves that detects is you are cornering, ,or increase ride height when it is bumpy....

The problem is, any shock / damper could be set up that way. Talk with Ohlins, Penske, and Multimatic, and they'll be more than happy to set you up like this with enough money.

The solution is FIA would have to issue spec and sealed shock / damper. Valving is open in Indy Car and this is a big difference between the front running and mid pack teams, Grosjean highlighted this as a difference for them on the street circuits.

It can be argued the conventional quite linear soft rear spring improves traction and therefore has a primary suspension function, whereas a collapsible heave spring that suddenly drops the rear of the car seems to be designed purely for aerodynamics.

Everything is a system. Potentially Mercedes proves that improves initial braking performance or stability at speed. The wholly incidental or contrived argument is easy to muck up enough to make it almost unenforceable.

People are pointing to a video of the RedBull at Austria being "linear". Looking linear and being linear are two different things, and without the data, it's just a guess. Furthermore, horses for courses, it's tuneable and without data at the same track, it's pointless.

[JordanMugen]

Everything is a system. Potentially Mercedes proves that improves initial braking performance or stability at speed. The wholly incidental or contrived argument is easy to muck up enough to make it almost unenforceable.

People are pointing to a video of the RedBull at Austria being "linear". Looking linear and being linear are two different things, and without the data, it's just a guess. Furthermore, horses for courses, it's tuneable and without data at the same track, it's pointless.

All very well, but we can't have Mercedes having an unfair advantage -- Mercedes are the very first to protest unfair Red Bull advantages like the flexible rear wing endplates or automated pitstops after all!

The wholly incidental or contrived argument is easy to muck up enough to make it almost unenforceable.

Not at all, many suspension systems have been banned by the FIA on the basis of being movable aerodynamic devices. Be it FRIC, be it the mass damper etc.