2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

[basti313]

Mexico will be damage limitations too, unfortunately.

Why? The squat device will be massive in Mexico. Not a single really fast corner without a braking point.

[Tvetovnato]

OK, so on to Mexico then. Does anyone know if the Honda still has a larger compressor than the Merc? I remember Allison cited that as the reason for it being better at high altitude, but is that still the case now when Honda has improved their PU? In any case, I don’t think Mexico and Brazil will be a slam dunk for RB as the media and most people make it out to be.

[BlueCheetah66]

OK, so on to Mexico then. Does anyone know if the Honda still has a larger compressor than the Merc? I remember Allison cited that as the reason for it being better at high altitude, but is that still the case now when Honda has improved their PU? In any case, I don’t think Mexico and Brazil will be a slam dunk for RB as the media and most people make it out to be.

Based on where RB was fastest here in Austin, they will probably dominate S2 and S3 in Mexico. With the thinner air, the difference in engine power will likely be lower so I see that as being an RB track if they get the setup correct.

[mkay]

Mexico will be damage limitations too, unfortunately.

Why? The squat device will be massive in Mexico. Not a single really fast corner without a braking point.

Squat device won't be helpful at all. Higher altitude means less air resistance, hence why they run barn door wings there.

Merc's high DF package is not as good as Red Bull, and the rear-limited track layout really favors Red Bull's chassis.

I don't see how Merc gets even a sniff at P1 unless something miraculous happens (like getting our first wet Mexican GP?).

[dans79]

Fair enough, I wonder whether the ride heights affected how the car worked the tyres.

It does for sure, raising the ride height will heavily affect the downforce on a low rake car like the Merc. You will get less downforce from the floor, and it will be more unpredictable. That's why it looked on rails in FP1, and then looked unstable at the rear the rest of the weakened.

It also has a knock on effect. Since they lost df from the floor, they most likely ran some additional rear wing, to make up for it, and that heart their top speed potential.

[dans79]

Squat device won't be helpful at all. Higher altitude means less air resistance, hence why they run barn door wings there.

Squatting at the rear and stalling the floor is always beneficial, regardless of altitude.

Mexico is a very good track for it imo. No long high speed turns like 17/18 in Austin.

Additionally they can go one of 3 ways.

1) Maximum rear wing, to gain performance in the corners, because stalling the floor on the strait will negate the effects of the higher df rear wing.
2) Normal rear wing (for the circuit), and gain additional top speed down the straits from stalling the floor.
3) A halfway house between the two.

[ringo]

OK, so on to Mexico then. Does anyone know if the Honda still has a larger compressor than the Merc? I remember Allison cited that as the reason for it being better at high altitude, but is that still the case now when Honda has improved their PU? In any case, I don’t think Mexico and Brazil will be a slam dunk for RB as the media and most people make it out to be.

Based on where RB was fastest here in Austin, they will probably dominate S2 and S3 in Mexico. With the thinner air, the difference in engine power will likely be lower so I see that as being an RB track if they get the setup correct.

The thinner air will even make the floor regs even a bigger issue for mercedes. Floor will be even more sensitive.

[basti313]

Mexico will be damage limitations too, unfortunately.

Why? The squat device will be massive in Mexico. Not a single really fast corner without a braking point.

Squat device won't be helpful at all. Higher altitude means less air resistance, hence why they run barn door wings there.

Merc's high DF package is not as good as Red Bull, and the rear-limited track layout really favors Red Bull's chassis.

I don't see how Merc gets even a sniff at P1 unless something miraculous happens (like getting our first wet Mexican GP?).

Since the Stone update Merc can produce more DF. This was obvious in Hungary and to some degree in Turkey.
The barn door wing in Mexico has not only a reason in the thin air, it is also the slippery last sector. We have often seen mixed wing levels.
The squat will be massive, they can just bolt on whatever they have to get downforce.

[PlatinumZealot]

OK, so on to Mexico then. Does anyone know if the Honda still has a larger compressor than the Merc? I remember Allison cited that as the reason for it being better at high altitude, but is that still the case now when Honda has improved their PU? In any case, I don’t think Mexico and Brazil will be a slam dunk for RB as the media and most people make it out to be.

A smaller or different shaped compressor is what they had. They should have had a more similar one to Mercedes since last year. Let's wait and see.

[XRayF1]

While I do not disagree with you at all, I believe it remains to be seen who had the lack of foresight ... beginning of next year.
All we can do right now is looking into the past in perfect hindsight, saying what they should have done - or not.

Some contributing factors still, me think.
It seems to be true that MGP thought having a slightly bigger advantage to the rest of the field than they actually had at the beginning of the year.
How they had corroborated this thought is beyond me, and even with MGPs design and engineering capabilities, they needed ... what, to Imola, ... to sort out the lack of rear downforce due to the rule changes?
Secondly RBR as such did a magnificent job getting their act together earlier compared to previous years - they were usually trailing MGP for the better part of the first half of any given year since 2014.
And third, to me, who would have thought that Honda was actually still this dedicated for the last year of direct involvement in F1.
Speaks greatly of engineering (and racing?) culture within this organisation - I would have thought Honda would only go for a saving face approach rather than this marvellous.

Good for them - thus good for Honda!

[SiLo]

I think it's still too close to call between the two teams, but I was surprised that Merc didn't call Lewis in early to keep track position if they knew they would be better on the hards than on the mediums.

[Sieper]

why would they. Lewis built a 3 lap advantage in his first stint and a 5 lap in his second (without loosing much time). With them knowing the white tire would be an advantage I would also take that over track position. f you go first who knows how many laps Verstappen still could have gone on his yellows. Then a white and finishing on yellows would likely also have made Hamilton very vulnerable. I really thought Hamilton would win it after the second pit stop. Indeed already when he closed the 6 seconds down so early in the first white stint I thought the race was over.

[SiLo]

I just figured they didn't want to be done on the undercut.

[dans79]

why would they. Lewis built a 3 lap advantage in his first stint and a 5 lap in his second (without loosing much time). With them knowing the white tire would be an advantage I would also take that over track position. f you go first who knows how many laps Verstappen still could have gone on his yellows. Then a white and finishing on yellows would likely also have made Hamilton very vulnerable. I really thought Hamilton would win it after the second pit stop. Indeed already when he closed the 6 seconds down so early in the first white stint I thought the race was over.

The problem is that even in Austin you need a significant time delta to pass. I think 1.2 seconds was quoted yesterday. Everyone says Austin is easy to overtake at, but it isn't in an F1 car. The car in front either needs to make a mistake or have some serious tire degradation.

[Sieper]

why would they. Lewis built a 3 lap advantage in his first stint and a 5 lap in his second (without loosing much time). With them knowing the white tire would be an advantage I would also take that over track position. f you go first who knows how many laps Verstappen still could have gone on his yellows. Then a white and finishing on yellows would likely also have made Hamilton very vulnerable. I really thought Hamilton would win it after the second pit stop. Indeed already when he closed the 6 seconds down so early in the first white stint I thought the race was over.

The problem is that even in Austin you need a significant time delta to pass. I think 1.2 seconds was quoted yesterday. Everyone says Austin is easy to overtake at, but it isn't in an F1 car. The car in front either needs to make a mistake or have some serious tire degradation.

Yeah, that straight after turn 11 was where it needed to happen for Merc. Then you have DRS and that last part where the car crouches down it becomes really fast. There Perhaps a lesser delta would have sufficed. But the RedBull had the better traction out of 11. That is possibly the difference between high rake/low rake and not having the springs compromised for the rear crouching as much as Mercedes (if that even requires a compromise, which is to be expected but does it?).

But Max was very early as it stands with pitstop one. Could/should Mercedes have preempted that?