Mercedes W12

[Hoffman900]

There has been hours of rear facing footage during the flexy wing debate. If such a strongly non-linear digressive heave stiffness was being used it would have been spotted by now.

What I can beleive is that a normal regressive heave stiffness was in use. That is hard to pick from an onboard camera. That's likely what Craig is referring to.

Craig explicitly explains how the non linear systems work in that very thread. While also declaring that they all use them, but Mercs does looks to be the most extreme version of the lot

This.

I don't know how people can claim RedBull's is linear without any data to back it up. It "looking" linear isn't the same as actually being linear.

Horse for courses as well. The heave spring / damper is tuneable like any other part and will be track specific.

[Tim.Wright]

No-one are claiming everyone else are running linear springs. What's patently obvious is that no-one else have had such a drastic regressive non-linearity.

[Hoffman900]

No-one are claiming everyone else are running linear springs. What's patently obvious is that no-one else have had such a drastic regressive non-linearity.

Do you have video and data of every car on the grid, at the same point of track?

Like the flexible wing, looking back down the field, other teams were doing it to a bigger extreme than RedBull. People just cared less about them.

[Tim.Wright]

I'd say that the people claiming it's already widespread are the ones needing to produce evidence.

There is loads of rear facing footage from the flex wing debate in which nothing like this was seen.

[yinlad]

I'd say that the people claiming it's already widespread are the ones needing to produce evidence.

There is loads of rear facing footage from the flex wing debate in which nothing like this was seen.

Most of the bendy wing footage I could find was from barca or baku. Barca isn't a track where this would be that useful because of the high cornering speed compared to vmax on the back straight and the baku footage didn't have the suspension visible.

Anyway, you can lead a horse to water and all that. I look forward to the details coming out next year

[PhillipM]

They were doing this even before hydraulic or pneumatic heave springs - you used to just run so the mechanical rockers went over centre and the spring ended up working in reverse to pull the car down.

[bigblue]

Here is a link for Craig Scarborough and Sam Collins discussing the suspension motion with video : https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.mercedes-rear-suspension-movement-is-the-hot-topic-at-cota-the-tech-talk.dkSt4dP4i7gR4O2ayN4mS.html

(I think this hasn't been posted before).

[RZS10]

So there's our comparison and the behaviour of the Merc isn't really out of line, they even say as much.

AMuS now even calls it a "Red Bull conspiracy theory" (3rd paragraph)

quick google translation (corrected some obvious errors)

With the qualifying result the flustered theories that Red Bull had brought into play in the run-up to the weekend to explain the loss of time on the straights compared to Mercedes also hushed down. Christian Horner and his troops have moved away from the superior Mercedes engine and have now set their sights on the rear axle of the Mercedes W12. They claim to have observed that the rear of the car drops massively on the straights, which leads to a stall and as a result to higher top speeds.

Red Bull even urged the FIA ​​to take a closer look at the rear suspension of the Silver Arrow. As expected, the investigation ended without result. Depending on the type of track, Mercedes lowers its rear end when the downforce increases by adjusting the suspension. Seven other teams in the field do the same. Some apparently even more radical than Mercedes. At Ferrari they admit: "This has been a completely normal setup tool for us for years."

This system has also been on board the Mercedes for years. And the rear axle of the car has not been changed since the beginning of the 2020 season. "It was one of the homologated parts for us. We couldn't change it at all. So the effects have always remained the same," allays an engineer.

[yinlad]

I'd say that the people claiming it's already widespread are the ones needing to produce evidence.

There is loads of rear facing footage from the flex wing debate in which nothing like this was seen.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... yN4mS.html

Imagine my utter lack of surprise when there's footage of several teams using it in Turkey

[Big Tea]

I'd say that the people claiming it's already widespread are the ones needing to produce evidence.

There is loads of rear facing footage from the flex wing debate in which nothing like this was seen.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... yN4mS.html

Imagine my utter lack of surprise when there's footage of several teams using it in Turkey

Geez. that site takes half hour t o turn off all the cookies and ads choices.

[henry]

It has been suggested that the W12, in fact all of the turbo era Mercedes, is poor at following other cars and the drivers find it almost impossible to overtake cars that are only a little slower.

Could it be that this is a consequence of the low rake philosophy? A high rake car following another will lose downforce which will trigger an increase in rake and so mitigate some of the loss. This might happen with a low rake car but to a much lower degree.

The apparent implementation of the higher rake in the W12, with an abrupt rake change targeted at straights would not seem to offer the advantage that a more conventional application of high rake provides when following.

[dans79]

It has been suggested that the W12, in fact all of the turbo era Mercedes, is poor at following other cars and the drivers find it almost impossible to overtake cars that are only a little slower.

Could it be that this is a consequence of the low rake philosophy? A high rake car following another will lose downforce which will trigger an increase in rake and so mitigate some of the loss. This might happen with a low rake car but to a much lower degree.

The apparent implementation of the higher rake in the W12, with an abrupt rake change targeted at straights would not seem to offer the advantage that a more conventional application of high rake provides when following.

I'd be more inclined to believe it has a lot more to do with the airflow over the front/mid of the car causing issues than the actual rake of the car.

[LM10]

I'd say that the people claiming it's already widespread are the ones needing to produce evidence.

There is loads of rear facing footage from the flex wing debate in which nothing like this was seen.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... yN4mS.html

Imagine my utter lack of surprise when there's footage of several teams using it in Turkey

Geez. that site takes half hour t o turn off all the cookies and ads choices.

You can reject all at once. I’ve found that out only after a while as well.

[e30ernest]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... yN4mS.html

Imagine my utter lack of surprise when there's footage of several teams using it in Turkey

Geez. that site takes half hour t o turn off all the cookies and ads choices.

You can reject all at once. I’ve found that out only after a while as well.

Just open in incognito.

[adrianjordan]

Will they be able to carry the rear squat over to the new regs and, more importantly, will it offer any benefit with the new underfloor aero rules?