2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Ryar]

It's one thing to underdrive 2 second a lap faster car for 7 years, appearing to be in full control, sleep walking and entirely another thing when there is another competitor having a matching car with better driving capabilities, requiring operating at limit.

Ah the old "2 seconds a lap faster for 7 years" chestnut. Total hogwash but it is still used as a stick to beat the man.

When team personnel (James and John Owen) have boasted of how they used to try and hide the actual performance of the car, to then you saying it was chestnut, I would let people decide that.

And as for who has the better driving abilities, until they drive the same car it's all opinion and no facts. For all we know, Hamilton might drive the RB16B faster than Max, given the chance.

Could very well be other way round.

[N21]

Annoying to see we still go pages on end about who has the better car or who is the better driver.

The cars are very closely matched and 5 races we will see who has been best this season

[TimW]

Maybe, some day, they will realize that F1 is a team sport, and that you cannot separate between car and driver

[Just_a_fan]

It's one thing to underdrive 2 second a lap faster car for 7 years, appearing to be in full control, sleep walking and entirely another thing when there is another competitor having a matching car with better driving capabilities, requiring operating at limit.

Ah the old "2 seconds a lap faster for 7 years" chestnut. Total hogwash but it is still used as a stick to beat the man.

When team personnel (James and John Owen) have boasted of how they used to try and hide the actual performance of the car, to then you saying it was chestnut, I would let people decide that.

And as for who has the better driving abilities, until they drive the same car it's all opinion and no facts. For all we know, Hamilton might drive the RB16B faster than Max, given the chance.

Could very well be other way round.

The car was f'ing fast in 2014, no one is denying that - Bahrain showed that after all.

But to say that every Mercedes has been 2 seconds a lap faster is just silly. It's just hyperbole to try to downplay the abilities of a driver you dislike.

Yes, Max might be half a second faster than Lewis, Lewis might half a second faster than Max. Until they drive the same car, we don't know. So it's pointless to say "Max is better than Lewis" or vice versa. They will, for a start, have their own individual strengths and weaknesses - neither is perfect because no one is perfect. What we do know, is that both of them are bloody quick week after week, year after year. They both are able to maintain performance where others seem to ebb and flow. That's what makes the best the best. Every driver on the grid, on his day, can turn in a stellar performance - even Mazepin has won races in the junior formulae - but it takes more than that to be top dogs. You need to be able to do it for an entire season. Lewis and Max can do that. Bottas and Perez, for example, are both capable of out competing their team mates - they've both done it this year - but they don't seem to be able to maintain that level consistently. That's what Max and Lewis bring to their respective teams and that's why they are both well ahead of their team mates in the points.

So let's enjoy the show and agree, hopefully, that whichever one wins the title this year will deserve it.

[Just_a_fan]

Maybe, some day, they will realize that F1 is a team sport, and that you cannot separate between car and driver

Exactly. But people, for whatever reason, identify with the individual and not the team. A team of 1000 people needs a face for people to like it, and the driver is the public face of the team like it or not.

[Sieper]

I didn’t know Smedley was the one behind those AWS stats. They almost always “predict” Lewis to be the best. After the FPs. Now I know why.

You just said, in your opinion, Merc was the faster car.

Two Mercedes drivers have taken fastest laps. Bottas was almost always close. The Mercedes is still the fastest imho and even if you don’t agree clearly it can never be the other extreme, that the RB is dominant. No matter how you want to manipulate data.

But yet, it’s also your opinion that Smedley is manipulating the data to merely make it look like Merc is projected to be fastest.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Yes. Merc is the faster car, but I still expect Max to be faster then Lewis, that is why I always raise my eyebrows when Max has been faster in FP3 but AWS predicts a Lewis pole yet again. By the way, it was not me who came it with the word manipulate, that was justafan. I would say interpret. Because none of us knows what data and what kind of choices when looking at that data have been used/made.

But OK, I should then be glad AWS predicts Lewis to be faster after FP3 and Max taking pole.

[TimW]

Until they drive the same car, we don't know.

Even if they drive the same car, you only know it for these car-driver combinations. It could well be different if you put them in another car. (E.g. Albon seemed relatively better (slightly) than Gasly against Verstappen in the RB, but Gasly relatively better than Albon against Kyvat in the Toro Rosso)

The driver is part of the car-driver system. The performance the teams are seeing is that of the car-driver combination, so they are optimizing the car-driver combination. Just as there are shifts in relative performance between teams if you change from soft to hard tires, there will be shifts in car performance if you replace the driver component.

[Just_a_fan]

Until they drive the same car, we don't know.

Even if they drive the same car, you only know it for these car-driver combinations. It could well be different if you put them in another car. (E.g. Albon seemed relatively better (slightly) than Gasly against Verstappen in the RB, but Gasly relatively better than Albon against Kyvat in the Toro Rosso)

The driver is part of the car-driver system. The performance the teams are seeing is that of the car-driver combination, so they are optimizing the car-driver combination. Just as there are shifts in relative performance between teams if you change from soft to hard tires, there will be shifts in car performance if you replace the driver component.

Good point, although the better drivers seem to be better across a range of car performances - they seem better able to adapt and maintain performance than other drivers who are only at their best when the car is exactly as they like it.

But that is a very difficult thing to be able to quantify.

[langedweil]

Ah the old "2 seconds a lap faster for 7 years" chestnut. Total hogwash but it is still used as a stick to beat the man.

Nah, it's not total hogwash and you know that; when you're able to strategize your PU downsizing (for years on) just to have enough to easily win in a way that doesn't raise too many eyebrows, then well .. you've done an extremely good job, haven't you. You can virtually bolt any desired amount of DF on your car and not pay the price for that in speed or tirewear. And if you occasionally miss some grunt, you just set it on 11 for half a lap (no longer though). Well done, even masterful, but it was dull & faked drama.
This year finally that momentum seems gone or at least a whole lot less, which almost nullifies the car/pu and shifts things to the car/driver combo as described by someone else. They now both need to reach for the absolute edge of their car/driver platform, and they both make their mistakes in doing that. And the simple fact that no one has any true idea of Sunday's outcome (let alone the WDC/WCC) makes this the best season for a long time .. at least for me.

[Sieper]

For me as well. I just wished for one thing. Not to have happened. But by now that is know.

[ringo]

I didn’t know Smedley was the one behind those AWS stats. They almost always “predict” Lewis to be the best. After the FPs. Now I know why.

You just said, in your opinion, Merc was the faster car.

Two Mercedes drivers have taken fastest laps. Bottas was almost always close. The Mercedes is still the fastest imho and even if you don’t agree clearly it can never be the other extreme, that the RB is dominant. No matter how you want to manipulate data.

But yet, it’s also your opinion that Smedley is manipulating the data to merely make it look like Merc is projected to be fastest.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Yes. Merc is the faster car, but I still expect Max to be faster then Lewis, that is why I always raise my eyebrows when Max has been faster in FP3 but AWS predicts a Lewis pole yet again. By the way, it was not me who came it with the word manipulate, that was justafan. I would say interpret. Because none of us knows what data and what kind of choices when looking at that data have been used/made.

But OK, I should then be glad AWS predicts Lewis to be faster after FP3 and Max taking pole.

You do know.. there is a difference between prediction and empirical evidence. What Rob Smedley is referring to is empirical or observed data. So huge difference. Also i doubt anyone will refute what he is saying.

[Sieper]

Some of these AWS data is clearly based on the actual telemetry. But ANY prediction must make some assumptions. Even when cast into an algorithm.

We have seen the first prediction already. Mercedes 1 2. By a hair.

[ringo]

I am saying that after the races are run, there is also data available to analyze, that is not prediction. Its showing real performance that was recorded. That is what Rob has access to and that cannot be disputed by anyone in F-1 much less an armchair expert at home who is using youtube replays. The man spent his whole career as a race engineer, he knows a thing or two about analyzing race car data. Instead of accepting or respecting his contribution, he is attacked personally by people who do not like what he is saying.

[west52keep64]

But OK, I should then be glad AWS predicts Lewis to be faster after FP3 and Max taking pole.

The AWS thing is just marketing, I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

[TNTHead]

If AWS is based on AI / ML than it is open for debate, for an algorithm can find correlations but not easily causation. Although more data on display during a race is nice, one just should not consider it as 'hard' data.