2021 Mclaren F1 Team

[JordanMugen]

But does it make sense from a marketing perspective to defunct a company name that has so much brand strength.

I honestly have no idea why VW chose to call their upmarket cars Audis and not DKWs or NSUs or just Auto Unions. At the time, the overarching Auto Union brand with its four rings and Grand Prix racing success would have been the most famous. But at least the four ring Auto Union badge lives on to this day.

It would be a shame to see McLarens become VW group parts bin specials or sell a rebadged Audi SUV, but then again it might be a great thing for McLaren and allow them to focus on vehicle dynamics and advanced carbon-fibre chassis without needing to worry about infotainment systems and all the things McLaren aren't very good at -- who knows?

[Big Tea]

But does it make sense from a marketing perspective to defunct a company name that has so much brand strength.

I honestly have no idea why VW chose to call their upmarket cars Audis and not DKWs or NSUs or just Auto Unions. At the time, the overarching Auto Union brand with its four rings and Grand Prix racing success would have been the most famous. But at least the four ring Auto Union badge lives on to this day.

It would be a shame to see McLarens become VW group parts bin specials or sell a rebadged Audi SUV, but then again it might be a great thing for McLaren and allow them to focus on vehicle dynamics and advanced carbon-fibre chassis without needing to worry about infotainment systems and all the things McLaren aren't very good at -- who knows?

A.U.D.I is actually the initals of Auto- Union- Deutschland- Ingolstadt-
Ingolstadt is a location

[JordanMugen]

But does it make sense from a marketing perspective to defunct a company name that has so much brand strength.

I honestly have no idea why VW chose to call their upmarket cars Audis and not DKWs or NSUs or just Auto Unions. At the time, the overarching Auto Union brand with its four rings and Grand Prix racing success would have been the most famous. But at least the four ring Auto Union badge lives on to this day.

It would be a shame to see McLarens become VW group parts bin specials or sell a rebadged Audi SUV, but then again it might be a great thing for McLaren and allow them to focus on vehicle dynamics and advanced carbon-fibre chassis without needing to worry about infotainment systems and all the things McLaren aren't very good at -- who knows?

A.U.D.I is actually the initals of Auto- Union- Deutschland- Ingolstadt-
Ingolstadt is a location

Interesting.

It is noted incorrectly on Wikipedia:

After troubles with Horch chief financial officer, August Horch left Motorwagenwerke and founded in Zwickau on 16 July 1909, and formed his second company, the August Horch Automobilwerke GmbH. His former partners sued him for trademark infringement. The German Reichsgericht (Supreme Court) in Leipzig,[14] eventually determined that the Horch brand belonged to his former company.[15]

Since August Horch was prohibited from using "Horch" as a trade name in his new car business, he called a meeting with close business friends, Paul and Franz Fikentscher from Zwickau. At the apartment of Franz Fikentscher, they discussed how to come up with a new name for the company. During this meeting, Franz's son was quietly studying Latin in a corner of the room. Several times he looked like he was on the verge of saying something but would just swallow his words and continue working, until he finally blurted out, "Father – audiatur et altera pars... wouldn't it be a good idea to call it audi instead of horch?"[16] "Horch!" in German means "Hark!" or "hear", which is "Audi" in the singular imperative form of "audire" – "to listen" – in Latin.

On 29 June 1932, Audiwerke, Horchwerke and Zschopauer Motorenwerke/DKW merged on the initiative of the State Bank of Saxony to form Auto Union AG. At the same time a purchase and leasing agreement was concluded with the Wanderer company for the acquisition of its automobile department. ... The four interlocking rings chosen as its emblem symbolised the indissoluble unity of the four member-companies. The brand names Audi, DKW, Horch and Wanderer were retained.

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/auto-union-311

How can Audi stand for Auto Union Deutschland Ingolstadt if Horch's second auto company was already called Audiwerke before the formation of Auto Union?

At least Bruce McLaren Motor Racing has a simple origin story. Or does it? Apparently Bruce McLaren Motor Racing built three of the McLaren 1 sportscars (both 1A & 1B?) but Elva Cars built the other 17 examples? Then construction was shifted to Trojan Cars for the McLaren 1C?

[Big Tea]

I honestly have no idea why VW chose to call their upmarket cars Audis and not DKWs or NSUs or just Auto Unions. At the time, the overarching Auto Union brand with its four rings and Grand Prix racing success would have been the most famous. But at least the four ring Auto Union badge lives on to this day.

It would be a shame to see McLarens become VW group parts bin specials or sell a rebadged Audi SUV, but then again it might be a great thing for McLaren and allow them to focus on vehicle dynamics and advanced carbon-fibre chassis without needing to worry about infotainment systems and all the things McLaren aren't very good at -- who knows?

A.U.D.I is actually the initals of Auto- Union- Deutschland- Ingolstadt-
Ingolstadt is a location

Interesting.

It is noted incorrectly on Wikipedia:

After troubles with Horch chief financial officer, August Horch left Motorwagenwerke and founded in Zwickau on 16 July 1909, and formed his second company, the August Horch Automobilwerke GmbH. His former partners sued him for trademark infringement. The German Reichsgericht (Supreme Court) in Leipzig,[14] eventually determined that the Horch brand belonged to his former company.[15]

Since August Horch was prohibited from using "Horch" as a trade name in his new car business, he called a meeting with close business friends, Paul and Franz Fikentscher from Zwickau. At the apartment of Franz Fikentscher, they discussed how to come up with a new name for the company. During this meeting, Franz's son was quietly studying Latin in a corner of the room. Several times he looked like he was on the verge of saying something but would just swallow his words and continue working, until he finally blurted out, "Father – audiatur et altera pars... wouldn't it be a good idea to call it audi instead of horch?"[16] "Horch!" in German means "Hark!" or "hear", which is "Audi" in the singular imperative form of "audire" – "to listen" – in Latin.

On 29 June 1932, Audiwerke, Horchwerke and Zschopauer Motorenwerke/DKW merged on the initiative of the State Bank of Saxony to form Auto Union AG. At the same time a purchase and leasing agreement was concluded with the Wanderer company for the acquisition of its automobile department. ... The four interlocking rings chosen as its emblem symbolised the indissoluble unity of the four member-companies. The brand names Audi, DKW, Horch and Wanderer were retained.

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/auto-union-311

How can Audi stand for Auto Union Deutschland Ingolstadt if Horch's second auto company was already called Audiwerke before the formation of Auto Union?

At least Bruce McLaren Motor Racing has a simple origin story. Or does it? Apparently Bruce McLaren Motor Racing built three of the McLaren 1 sportscars (both 1A & 1B?) but Elva Cars built the other 17 examples? Then construction was shifted to Trojan Cars for the McLaren 1C?

If it is incorrect I apologise, but that is how I recall it from long ago, when AUDI introduced the 2002 to UK. (along with a NSU RO80 )

[mwillems]

Lamborghini competes with McLaren, I wonder how VW group is going to sort that out.

Big conglomerates breed success like that. If you go to the supermarket, look at the 20 cleaning product brands and they'll be owned by the same 2 or 3 manufacturers. Same with sweets, beauty products, food/drink products... Cars exist in the same economy. if you have 5 brands out of the 20 then you have a quarter of the brand choice and are more likely to capture more market share than if you had the same number of headcount and factories under one brand. Especially since they can homogonise the products between cars and save cash that way. Even in supercars.

For instance, what now for Ricardo engineering?

[JordanMugen]

Lamborghini competes with McLaren, I wonder how VW group is going to sort that out.

Big conglomerates breed success like that. If you go to the supermarket, look at the 20 cleaning product brands and they'll be owned by the same 2 or 3 manufacturers. Same with sweets, beauty products, food/drink products... Cars exist in the same economy. if you have 5 brands out of the 20 then you have a quarter of the brand choice and are more likely to capture more market share

It's an interesting theory, and it is curious how General Motors tried very hard to make this work but couldn't do so with their Saturn, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, SAAB, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Opel/Vauxhall, Daewoo, Geo, and Holden brands, and have retired or sold at least half of these brands. Indeed the sportscar maker Lotus (albeit long separated from Team Lotus Formula One team) was within the General Motors portfolio at one point (as was Izusu partially), wasn't it, and rumour has it that General Motors insisted that the Isuzu-powered Lotus Elan used a front wheel drive layout?

[In 1986], Lotus went into the hands of General Motors. With American dollars backing, Lotus launched an expansion plan aiming at 5,000 cars sales annually. To realize this, GM pumped US$40 million into a new project named M100, which turned out to be Elan Mk2. The new Elan was very different from the original - or just any other Lotuses - because it was front-wheel drive.

http://www.autozine.org/Archive/Lotus/c ... _M100.html

I think auto enthusiasts are quite discerning, and notice full well when a VW Golf GTI and Lamborghini Murcielago use the same coil packs, same EVAP solenoids, same cabin temperature sensor etc with the same VW Audi logo and same part number printed on them. Or when a Fiat Punto and Ferrari 550 use the same indicator stalks etc.

Conversely, customers do complain when they can't open their McLaren MP4-12C because the door handle sensor proximity doesn't work, and it indeed might be better for McLaren to use a VW Golf door handle proximity sensor that is made in the hundreds of thousands of units and is known to work.

Especially since they can homogonise the products between cars and save cash that way. Even in supercars.

If the Citroen C4 is just a totally conventional Peugeot 307 with different styling instead of a wacky unconventional car (like the predecessor Xsara, GSA etc), then what's the point of buying the Citroen? Likewise, if the Lamborghini Huracan is just an Audi R8 with different styling, what's the point of buying the Lamborghini?

[diffuser]

Red Bull power trains will be more capable than you think.

There was no statement on capability of said engines at all in my post nor it was intended to be read like a snyde/sarcastic comment.

Just relating the rumors who might be materializing, where Mclaren engines will come from, that sort of thing.

I didn't read it snyde at all

I think that if this turns to be a fact based rumour then there are some issues in future.

1: McLaren are well regarded for what they are and have been - a racing entity. Becoming a brand in VAG dilutes and for me, my gut instinct says I don't like it. I suspect many other fans of this team won't like it either? I guess this thread will shed some light on that..

2: Engines - if Porsche takes over Red Bull Powertrains - how does that marry with VAG having an F1 team of it's own in need of motors. Either RBR is going to be the 'works' consumer of the ex RBT engines (badged Porsche) or Porsche are going to supply engines to McLaren as 'works team'?

How that shakes out? Who knows... but makes no sense to VAG to buy an engine faciluty for 2026 and then oly have a suppy arrangement with its 'own' team.

I think the "Works" tag doesn't hold the same value as it once did. The recient rule changes have forced the PU manufacturer to share Fuel and all the same mappings as the customer teams. If that continues to be in the next gen PU regs and the PU costs come down further, that too will reduce another works PU avantage (free PUs). Atleast I'm expecting Major challenges from non works teams for the F1 Titles.

[proteus]

Lamborghini competes with McLaren, I wonder how VW group is going to sort that out.

What is better? Competing when Mclaren is under different roof - stealing money from you, or under your own ownership getting you a profit either way. And majority of clients have no problem with owning a Lambo, Mclaren Ferrari and etc. in their garages in their several homes and properties at the same time with enormous apetite for new cars constantly since money is no issue.

Either way, it seems the deal fizzed out.

[mwillems]

Lamborghini competes with McLaren, I wonder how VW group is going to sort that out.

Big conglomerates breed success like that. If you go to the supermarket, look at the 20 cleaning product brands and they'll be owned by the same 2 or 3 manufacturers. Same with sweets, beauty products, food/drink products... Cars exist in the same economy. if you have 5 brands out of the 20 then you have a quarter of the brand choice and are more likely to capture more market share

It's an interesting theory, and it is curious how General Motors tried very hard to make this work but couldn't do so with their Saturn, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, SAAB, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Opel/Vauxhall, Daewoo, Geo, and Holden brands, and have retired or sold at least half of these brands. Indeed the sportscar maker Lotus (albeit long separated from Team Lotus Formula One team) was within the General Motors portfolio at one point (as was Izusu partially), wasn't it, and rumour has it that General Motors insisted that the Isuzu-powered Lotus Elan used a front wheel drive layout?

[In 1986], Lotus went into the hands of General Motors. With American dollars backing, Lotus launched an expansion plan aiming at 5,000 cars sales annually. To realize this, GM pumped US$40 million into a new project named M100, which turned out to be Elan Mk2. The new Elan was very different from the original - or just any other Lotuses - because it was front-wheel drive.

http://www.autozine.org/Archive/Lotus/c ... _M100.html

I think auto enthusiasts are quite discerning, and notice full well when a VW Golf GTI and Lamborghini Murcielago use the same coil packs, same EVAP solenoids, same cabin temperature sensor etc with the same VW Audi logo and same part number printed on them. Or when a Fiat Punto and Ferrari 550 use the same indicator stalks etc.

Conversely, customers do complain when they can't open their McLaren MP4-12C because the door handle sensor proximity doesn't work, and it indeed might be better for McLaren to use a VW Golf door handle proximity sensor that is made in the hundreds of thousands of units and is known to work.

Especially since they can homogonise the products between cars and save cash that way. Even in supercars.

If the Citroen C4 is just a totally conventional Peugeot 307 with different styling instead of a wacky unconventional car (like the predecessor Xsara, GSA etc), then what's the point of buying the Citroen? Likewise, if the Lamborghini Huracan is just an Audi R8 with different styling, what's the point of buying the Lamborghini?

General Motors is an example of it not working but there are examples where it does.

The Rolls Royce ghost is 20% BMW parts for instance and many existing manufacturers have overlap in their brands at many levels.

The Mclaren marque would not detract any more from existing VW group brands than it already does, it's just the profits would go to VW group.

In any case, Mvlaren have refuted the story emphatically. And I'm happy they haven't been sold.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.c ... atform=amp

[Big Tea]

Dont hold your breath for VW group to come to the game, they get a few weeks publicity from this every couple years but nothing is ever done

[mwillems]

For anyone that is interested, Mclarens Fy21 H1 results.

Debt is down to 620 million, down 100m from a year ago. Sakes have bounced strongly. More than double the value of 2020 H1.

Interestingly the F1 team have been paid their budget up until 2023 already and the group will no longer finance racing and they have become an independent part of the group.

It's a long road ahead but a promising one.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... JqzNioUh2C

[Ground Effect]

From the article on Motirsport.com, VW group is looking at ONLY one brand joining F1. So it’s either Audi or Porsche, which in effect is either McLaren or Red Bull. With RBR already investing in RB Powertrains and taking over the Honda IP, wouldn’t they be a more attractive prospect?

[mwillems]

From the article on Motirsport.com, VW group is looking at ONLY one brand joining F1. So it’s either Audi or Porsche, which in effect is either McLaren or Red Bull. With RBR already investing in RB Powertrains and taking over the Honda IP, wouldn’t they be a more attractive prospect?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/vw-f1-ent ... -november/

This suggests "insiders" have said there may be two brands joining, with one going to RB and one to Mclaren, with the group taking on the Honda Powertrain IP to develop into the 2026 engine.

At the moment, it's anyone's guess as to how it will unfold. Possibly with them not joining F1 at all. We are largely just hearing media speculation, although in amongst all of this there may be a very reliable source, we have no idea which is it.

[JRindt]

From the article on Motirsport.com, VW group is looking at ONLY one brand joining F1. So it’s either Audi or Porsche, which in effect is either McLaren or Red Bull. With RBR already investing in RB Powertrains and taking over the Honda IP, wouldn’t they be a more attractive prospect?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/vw-f1-ent ... -november/

This suggests "insiders" have said there may be two brands joining, with one going to RB and one to Mclaren, with the group taking on the Honda Powertrain IP to develop into the 2026 engine.

At the moment, it's anyone's guess as to how it will unfold. Possibly with them not joining F1 at all. We are largely just hearing media speculation, although in amongst all of this there may be a very reliable source, we have no idea which is it.

Would that mean McLaren and RBR will be sister teams? Ewww

[mwillems]

From the article on Motirsport.com, VW group is looking at ONLY one brand joining F1. So it’s either Audi or Porsche, which in effect is either McLaren or Red Bull. With RBR already investing in RB Powertrains and taking over the Honda IP, wouldn’t they be a more attractive prospect?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/vw-f1-ent ... -november/

This suggests "insiders" have said there may be two brands joining, with one going to RB and one to Mclaren, with the group taking on the Honda Powertrain IP to develop into the 2026 engine.

At the moment, it's anyone's guess as to how it will unfold. Possibly with them not joining F1 at all. We are largely just hearing media speculation, although in amongst all of this there may be a very reliable source, we have no idea which is it.

Would that mean McLaren and RBR will be sister teams? Ewww

hahaha not quite. It sounds like they'd cleverly badge the same engine with two different brands. If that is indeed the route they'd want to go down. Not a bad idea really and it has been done before, when Renault wanted to distance themselves from Red Bull and badged their engines Tag Heuer.