2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[Jambier]

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[nimoraca]

Also, the Lap 17 restart wasn't a dive bomb (if that was what you were referring to). It was a great move by Verstappen and Hamilton wasn't forced off the track. He and Ocon had a coming together and Ocon went off.

I wasn't referring to that.

[Spoutnik]

Apart from all the penalty drama I find it impressive that Lewis, again, pull off a move on Verstappen with pure race pace (like in Brazil) despite losing track position on a place where it's quite difficult to follow.

[GrizzleBoy]

Verstappen had to gave the place back he chose there for obvious reasons and Hamilton didn't want to take it. So in my opinion Hamilton lost the place to Verstappen at that moment. And the driver crashing in the rear of another car is always the one at fault.

He chose to give the place back in a way that basically is the opposite of giving the place back (i.e. pretending to let past, then racing full speed to the last corner while positioning yourself to gain DRS advantage), which you aren't allowed to do.

He also drove erratically speeding up and slowing down despite net overall deceleration, not properly moving to the side, slowly drifting into the middle of the track and not giving a clear indication that he intended to actually cede the place.

He also then brake checked a car he was watching in his mirrors the whole time and knew exactly what would happen when he hit that brake pedal, causing a collision, which you aren't allowed to do.


So regardless of whether or not Lewis chose to do the completely legal, allowed, smart, common sense, racing strategy of not overtaking before the DRS line, Max still was not allowed to do all those things he did, so he got a penalty.

I don't think its that difficult to understand. The constant whataboutism is just weird to me.

if you guys think lewis is all great and wonderful why did he resort to crashing Max in silverstone .the irony is lost in some of you is that we have these artifacial champiship because lewis stated with cheating when he took Max out.it should have been long over in qatar.were was lewis when vettel distroyed him for 4 straight years it took 2 secound merc to safe his behind

Case in point.

Fact: Max did bad thing, backed up by facts created by data recorded from his car control input telemetry. Also found it impossible to attack or defend without causing some kind of incident.

The Reply: Lewis crashed into Max in Silverstone, Vettel won WDC at Red Bull four times and the Merc is a fast car.

Okay. I'll bite I guess.

Imo, if Max does not win the WDC and spends his time complaining about Silverstone where he got a just reward for his pointlessly aggressive style, then he deserves to lose even more.

Another way to think about Silverstone, is that if Max had the right people backing him, and didn't spend so many years having so many fans, family, commentators, former drivers, team mates, bosses, team principles etc kissing his ass for having actually terrible race craft, he'd never have turned in the way he did when there was absolutely no reason to defend that hard with a 32 points lead and a car that was more than competitive and even ahead in the overall spread of that part of the season.

He would have had a sensible head on his shoulders, would have been thinking about the championship and not having the immature mindset of always winning every corner, every race, every time. He'd have had the respect to leave space and not the arrogance to shut the door on a car he KNEW was there (he did squeeze Ham upto the wall so he knew exactly where he was), made the corner (on or off track) and at worst, still kept a huge points lead and at best made his point lead almost insurmountable.

So even in Silverstone, Max was his own worst enemy. His own sense of entitlement screwed him just as hard as Lewis did.

If Lewis had this mentality and didn't have the sense to be careful and avoid crashes, he'd be complaining almost every race that he's had some crash and DNF or race ruining damage because Max pushed him and Lewis was too stubborn to avoid the incident.

People defending Max's behaviour with all this pointless whataboutism and minimising his display of consistently poor racing standards is part of the problem and the counter intuitive thing if you're his fan, is that none of it helps him.

[bonjon1979]

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If bottas has have tagged max there, max would've been pitched into Hamilton and probably taken both of them out of the race. Would've all but secured the title for max! How ironic that would've been!

[Tubas]

Also, the Lap 17 restart wasn't a dive bomb (if that was what you were referring to). It was a great move by Verstappen and Hamilton wasn't forced off the track. He and Ocon had a coming together and Ocon went off.

Alternatively, Lewis was forced (yet again) to avoid a collision by a dive bombing Verstappen, and left with no where to go, had a coming together with Ocon.

[NathanOlder]

To sum it all up:
1. The race gets stopped (a potentially championship altering decision) because of a bit of damage on the barriers and that occurs after 3 laps of safety car.
2. On the new formation lap, Hamilton drives unnecessarily slowly (unsportsmen like?) but there is no rule against it on the formation lap.
3. On the restart, Max loses the first position (by more than a full car length) but retakes it back by cutting the corner and returning unsafely back (costing Hamilton another position in the process).
4. Max gets overtaken on the track by Hamilton again but retakes the position back by divebombing on the inside, leaving the track (again) and forcing Hamilton to take avoiding actions (again).
5. Max gets notified that he needs to let Hamilton by, but to do so "strategically" so that he can retain an advantage and retake the position back unfairly (again) on the next straight.
6. Hamilton does not get notified that Max will give the position back and gets confused by Max slowing down but somehow not clearly moving to one side of the track but staying close to the middle of the track.
7. Max brake checks (breaks hard with another car behind him) Hamilton
8. Max is (again) issued an order to give position back which he does, but retains an advantage and retakes position back on the next DRS
9. Finally, Max gets overtaken by Hamilton (again) with Hamilton driving without half of its front wing.
10. Max gets voted driver of the day and in his "driver of the day interview" says that this is not F1 for him.

Did I miss something.

Max did a practice start outside the designated area to do practice starts. Last time I checked, its a 5 sec penalty. (russia 2020)

[Tommy Cookers]

... Verstappen had to gave the place back he chose there for obvious reasons and Hamilton didn't want to take it. So in my opinion Hamilton lost the place to Verstappen at that moment....

the rules seem to be as well-designed and tested as a chocolate teacup

the BBC radio commentary said ....
the time delay due to LH's rejection of MV forfeit cost MV the window over Ocon to pit and get fastest lap
also MV getting 5 sec penalty and position forfeit was 2 punishments for one offence

[NathanOlder]

Hamilton knew fully what Verstappen intended to do, he kept his dumb appearance up knowning well he should keep his mouth shut about what Verstappen was doing. So when Verstappen let go of the accelerator, Hamilton didn't want to overtake, Verstappen pressed the brakes a bit harder to force Hamilton to overtake, which Hamilton didn't expect and it resulted in a minor collision. Verstappen got punished for that last brake action... It's ridiculous to say the least; both the FIA and Hamilton's hypocrisy.
Verstappen had to gave the place back he chose there for obvious reasons and Hamilton didn't want to take it. So in my opinion Hamilton lost the place to Verstappen at that moment. And the driver crashing in the rear of another car is always the one at fault.

If Max is allowed to "let Hamilton by, but do it strategically" Then surely this means Hamilton is allowed to "take the place back, but do it strategically"

[NathanOlder]

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Did Max get hit by a Merc ?

I didnt think so , so what the issue ? I guess Lewis deserves a penalty for this ?!!??!

[basti313]

2. On the new formation lap, Hamilton drives unnecessarily slowly (unsportsmen like?) but there is no rule against it on the formation lap.

There is the usual SC rule with 10 car lengths. Vettel got a nice penalty for this some years ago.
This was not enforced neither on Ham nor on Bot. For me it is bad to call for penalties every time...and yesterday was not a good occasion, they would have needed to enforce the rule earlier this season, now it is done every time and really disgusting as it just goes on spectators nerves by wasting time.
For me....if you want to find a real error in the marshaling this year than this is the error for me. Clear red line through the season where this rule was ignored and it just got worse every race. This started already in the Ham vs. Ros time, when they tried to freeze each other. Not marshaling intra team battles is maybe the trigger.

5. Max gets notified that he needs to let Hamilton by, but to do so "strategically" so that he can retain an advantage and retake the position back unfairly (again) on the next straight.
6. Hamilton does not get notified that Max will give the position back and gets confused by Max slowing down but somehow not clearly moving to one side of the track but staying close to the middle of the track.

I do not get this "not notified" bull$hit. Why do people think Ham is stupid? He knew very well that Ver wanted to let him past right before the DRS line and he simply wanted to stay behind, this is why he went off the throttle early.
I even think that it was simply his fault not to just blast by once Ver started to go even slower, with the momentum there would have been no chance to use the DRS for Ver.

8. Max is (again) issued an order to give position back which he does, but retains an advantage and retakes position back on the next DRS

I think this does not play any role. The 5sec penalty came out right at the moment when he did this stunt.

[dans79]

I even think that it was simply his fault not to just blast by once Ver started to go even slower, with the momentum there would have been no chance to use the DRS for Ver.

Highly unlikely, Max wanted to force Lewis up the inside so he had a compromised and slower line through the turn. Max wouldd have gone around outside at maximum speed and thus had a better line and corner exit velocity.

[DChemTech]

I even think that it was simply his fault not to just blast by once Ver started to go even slower, with the momentum there would have been no chance to use the DRS for Ver.

Highly unlikely, Max wanted to force Lewis up the inside so he had a compromised and slower line through the turn. Max wouldd have gone around outside at maximum speed and thus had a better line and corner exit velocity.

With the overspeed Lewis would have had if he continued on at 300 kph, while Max slowed down to maybe 150 - 200 kph, I don't think that would have worked. Max would need to better exit and DRS to not lose sight of Hamilton - no way he'd be able to overtake him right after.

[Just_a_fan]

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Did Max get hit by a Merc ?

I didnt think so , so what the issue ? I guess Lewis deserves a penalty for this ?!!??!

There appears to be an attempt to build a narrative that Bottas did it deliberately. That it was an attempt to take Max out of the race. Bizarre tin foil hat stuff.

[xaero]

To sum it all up:
1. The race gets stopped (a potentially championship altering decision) because of a bit of damage on the barriers and that occurs after 3 laps of safety car.
2. On the new formation lap, Hamilton drives unnecessarily slowly (unsportsmen like?) but there is no rule against it on the formation lap.
3. On the restart, Max loses the first position (by more than a full car length) but retakes it back by cutting the corner and returning unsafely back (costing Hamilton another position in the process).
4. Max gets overtaken on the track by Hamilton again but retakes the position back by divebombing on the inside, leaving the track (again) and forcing Hamilton to take avoiding actions (again).
5. Max gets notified that he needs to let Hamilton by, but to do so "strategically" so that he can retain an advantage and retake the position back unfairly (again) on the next straight.
6. Hamilton does not get notified that Max will give the position back and gets confused by Max slowing down but somehow not clearly moving to one side of the track but staying close to the middle of the track.
7. Max brake checks (breaks hard with another car behind him) Hamilton
8. Max is (again) issued an order to give position back which he does, but retains an advantage and retakes position back on the next DRS
9. Finally, Max gets overtaken by Hamilton (again) with Hamilton driving without half of its front wing.
10. Max gets voted driver of the day and in his "driver of the day interview" says that this is not F1 for him.

Did I miss something.

Between 9 and 10, Lewis after overtaking doesn't attempt to make the corner with Max still next to him, pushing Max of the track.

Salute to you sir.

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2. On the new formation lap, Hamilton drives unnecessarily slowly (unsportsmen like?) but there is no rule against it on the formation lap.
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This was in response to Crashtappen doing practice start in pit lane. You totally missed it.