2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[rifrafs2kees]

I would glad to see Ham and Ver in the same team, no matter RB or Mercedes with equal treatment. Season with a hell flame is guaranteed. So sad it couldn't happen ever.

Not at Red Bull, maybe at Ferrari. Horner and co literally encouraged Lauda to poach Hamilton to weaken Mclaren. For them it didn't matter if Hamilton's talent became a casualty in their quest. Little did they know Merc. would blossom into a powerhouse.
All this Horner talk about the sport needing competition is hot air!

[Big Tea]

I think that if Hamilton had been informed that Verstappen was to give him the place back he would have behaved exactly the same. He would have known with more certainty what Verstappen’s plan was and he would still refuse to pass before the DRS detection line.

Who you'd then blame for the collision? Max for not handing that position on the silver platter with a deep deep bow? Or the one that fully expected what was in front of him and still managed to hit the car in front?

That’s a reasonable question. I don’t think the regulations are clear. IMO the collision was ultimately caused by Verstappen braking suddenly as he got close to the DRS detection line. Had he continued to slow more gradually the collision would probably have been avoided, Hamilton would have had DRS and who knows whether he would have risked entering a corner in close proximity to Verstappen.

In answer to your question if it played out in the same way I’d side with the stewards in placing the majority of the blame to Verstappen because his sudden braking was not necessary to permit Hamilton to pass.

I suspect Ham would have given him a wide berth and tried to be going fast enough that Ver would not get within the 1 second. It may have meant adjusting the approach speed and time though.

[DChemTech]

I don't deny all that, although Ocon equally had part in the whole Brazil affair. Max is more of an outright aggressor, Ocon more of a provocateur. The former typically get the blame because they are the first to get physical. Not saying that that means Max was not doing anything wrong, he should have held back, but the blame was not squarely on him. Had Ocon apologized instead of provoked, things would have also turned out different. But this is not Brazil.

[Mogster]

The problem with the collision and leading up to it, were the movements of Verstappen. He decelerated and while he was on the far right going into the fast left hander (T25/T26), as Lewis was closing, Verstappen started to move to the inside of the track. This isn't showing intention of wanting to let someone by - it's erratic movement. Adding to that, on a part of the track that is high speed, narrow and a left-hander (not a straight):

Verstappen is decelerating, on the far right:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/01.gif

As Hamilton is closing the gap, Verstappen moves to the inside. With any big speed differential, it's a big accident waiting to happen if you keep going for the gap that is disappearing (Baku / Riccardo-Verstappen?):
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/02.gif

At this point, Hamilton has lost all his momentum after decelerating hard and is now behind Verstappen:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/03.gif

As Verstappen decelerates further, Hamilton is directly behind him. There is very little room on the right, there's a small gap on the left:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/04.gif

As Hamilton moves to the left, the only space that offers sufficient space and a gap with margin still directly behind Verstappen, Verstappen also moves to the inside and hits the brakes and they collide:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/05.gif

If Verstappens intentions were genuine and sincere to give up the position, he would have done so;

1.) staying on the far right, no erratic movements to the inside
2.) at a better location than in a corner
3.) would NOT have hit the brakes while occupying the middle of the track while having your opponent in close approximation behind you
4.) then, once the contact occurs, to go full throttle and disappear in the distance

This to me shows very clear and beyond doubt intent of willingly causing a collision. A collision with potential damage to your opponent (front wings are among the most fragile parts on a F1 car).

Not only that, there was also precedent for the intent to willingly engage in driving that put Hamilton and himself at risk for damage/DNF - i.e. the 2nd standing start where he rejoined the track at an impossible angle and in a blocking maneuver instead of following the track and rejoining at the far end and a trajectory beneficial to everyone:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/06.gif

Or Lap 37 when Hamilton passed him on the straight with DRS and he went in hot on the inside and straight off track. If Hamilton there had not avoided and backed out, they would have collided.

It's a real shame, because Verstappen is undoubtedly one of the very best F1 drivers out there, yet he is resorting to driving that is not necessary, reeks of desperation and very dirty. And to make matters worse - the insufficient penalty for what is considered to be one of the most serious offenses a driver can commit, is not sending a clear signal that such driving should not be allowed, is very dangerous and could end in a very very serious accident.

footage from helicopter shows that hamilton had more than enough space on left si your statements are without proof

Maybe Lewis should fly the helicopter next time then, be easier to avoid Max then. The screen caps show very little room on the right and a closing gap on the left as Max is moving left. The question is, as the OP says, if Verstappen genuinely wanted to give the place back then why choose a narrow corner, why brake and then why move left when Hamilton attempts to take the place

The usual way of conceding would be to move right on the main straight before the braking zone. Then the perusing car can overtake unimpeded and the chasing car then return to the normal racing line.

[ab_f1]

I even think that it was simply his fault not to just blast by once Ver started to go even slower, with the momentum there would have been no chance to use the DRS for Ver.

Highly unlikely, Max wanted to force Lewis up the inside so he had a compromised and slower line through the turn. Max wouldd have gone around outside at maximum speed and thus had a better line and corner exit velocity.

With the overspeed Lewis would have had if he continued on at 300 kph, while Max slowed down to maybe 150 - 200 kph, I don't think that would have worked. Max would need to better exit and DRS to not lose sight of Hamilton - no way he'd be able to overtake him right after.

I think the nature of Track played into this, Difficult to see your opponent until pair is close.

In a normal scenario Lewis would target to be right behind Max for slip stream and then pass.

In this scenario without knowing Max is giving place, he would arrive at the scene with intent of gaining Slip Stream.

Given he was closing so fast, first thing would come to mind is "Have I missed a VSC/Yellow flag."

By the time he would check and recover, it will be too late as he is almost at same speed as Max approaching DRS line.

At that point sensible thing will be to wait and overtake after the DRS line.

I agree with you in terms of intent about Brake testing. But it raises questions about Max's state of mind and his ability to take preventative actions when needed. That is even more dangerous than break testing at that speed.

[RPieter]

On another note, what's the prediction for the last round? Who has the advantage in Quali, who in the race? Will we see more fireworks between the 2?

[Roo]

Maybe Lewis should fly the helicopter next time then, be easier to avoid Max then. The screen caps show very little room on the right and a closing gap on the left as Max is moving left. The question is, as the OP says, if Verstappen genuinely wanted to give the place back then why choose a narrow corner, why brake and then why move left when Hamilton attempts to take the place

The usual way of conceding would be to move right on the main straight before the braking zone. Then the perusing car can overtake unimpeded and the chasing car then return to the normal racing line.

This is were it is hard to defend MV; it wasn't just the break testing (other can argue what they like), it was weaving, holding the centre of the track etc all, of which was a personal choice to impede compliance with stewards requests and transition to what should have been. Sadly; his bahaviour was under "strategic" instruction.

[Just_a_fan]

[...]

footage from helicopter shows that hamilton had more than enough space on left si your statements are without proof

But Hamilton wasn't in the helicopter, was he? He was seeing it from roughly the angle we are seeing it in the onboard shots. And he was also having to work out what Verstappen was doing and why. So your argument is fallacious.

[Just_a_fan]

Blame the kid for the crimes of his father. Wonderful.

Max has his own issues, attacking Ocon in Brazil. constant profanity and slurs over the radio (to the point that the mongolian government went to the UN about it). His actions and comments in brazil when he kept his foot down when he flew past bottas in the wal! The Verstappen rule was created because of his constant moves in braking zones! etc etc etc.

I don't deny all that, although Ocon equally had part in the whole Brazil affair. Max is more of an outright aggressor, Ocon more of a provocateur. The former typically get the blame because they are the first to get physical. Not saying that that means Max was not doing anything wrong, he should have held back, but the blame was not squarely on him. Had Ocon apologized instead of provoked, things would have also turned out different. But this is not Brazil.

And any of that doesn't make it right to basically say "Jos has his problems, so clearly Max was capable of deliberately ramming Lewis". Max's behavior should be judged on his own merits, not on his fathers.

Ocon was allowed to unlap himself and any driver with an ounce of sense would have stayed out of his way. But Max closed the door on him - he shall not pass! It was red mist silliness - he was racing against a guy that was a lap down on him. Who had most to lose? It wasn't Ocon.

And why should Ocon apologise? He didn't close the door on Max, it was the other way round.

Max messed up and then went and physically attacked Ocon.

[DChemTech]

Max has his own issues, attacking Ocon in Brazil. constant profanity and slurs over the radio (to the point that the mongolian government went to the UN about it). His actions and comments in brazil when he kept his foot down when he flew past bottas in the wal! The Verstappen rule was created because of his constant moves in braking zones! etc etc etc.

I don't deny all that, although Ocon equally had part in the whole Brazil affair. Max is more of an outright aggressor, Ocon more of a provocateur. The former typically get the blame because they are the first to get physical. Not saying that that means Max was not doing anything wrong, he should have held back, but the blame was not squarely on him. Had Ocon apologized instead of provoked, things would have also turned out different. But this is not Brazil.

And any of that doesn't make it right to basically say "Jos has his problems, so clearly Max was capable of deliberately ramming Lewis". Max's behavior should be judged on his own merits, not on his fathers.

Ocon was allowed to unlap himself and any driver with an ounce of sense would have stayed out of his way. But Max closed the door on him - he shall not pass! It was red mist silliness - he was racing against a guy that was a lap down on him. Who had most to lose? It wasn't Ocon.

And why should Ocon apologise? He didn't close the door on Max, it was the other way round.

Max messed up and then went and physically attacked Ocon.

Not the Brazil back then thread, not going there any further.

[Justthatek]

Highly unlikely, Max wanted to force Lewis up the inside so he had a compromised and slower line through the turn. Max wouldd have gone around outside at maximum speed and thus had a better line and corner exit velocity.

With the overspeed Lewis would have had if he continued on at 300 kph, while Max slowed down to maybe 150 - 200 kph, I don't think that would have worked. Max would need to better exit and DRS to not lose sight of Hamilton - no way he'd be able to overtake him right after.

Not well thought out at all. You do realize it might've been suicidal to barrel down at slowing competitor without blue flags or some communication as to why said competitor has slowed down in the MIDDLE of a track with no runoff? Come on, you can do better.

Verstappen's dubious pretense of relinquishing the position started this chain reaction. Any attempt to lay blame with Hamilton is a stretch.

What about these two events they weren't fighting for a WDC so why the need for such defence.

[Jambier]

In pics:

https://ibb.co/DLwxgY4
https://ibb.co/wRj5Vj2
https://ibb.co/kSDtsCh
convertir en

Did Max get hit by a Merc ?

I didnt think so , so what the issue ? I guess Lewis deserves a penalty for this ?!!??!

No I don’t want penalty for any driver « let them race »

I think VER is still anger to have lost the title in Silverstone, but that’s it, he lost part of it there and part of it because Mercedes is dominating like 2020 again.

This a difficult to accept for someone who live for that

[rifrafs2kees]

With the overspeed Lewis would have had if he continued on at 300 kph, while Max slowed down to maybe 150 - 200 kph, I don't think that would have worked. Max would need to better exit and DRS to not lose sight of Hamilton - no way he'd be able to overtake him right after.

Not well thought out at all. You do realize it might've been suicidal to barrel down at slowing competitor without blue flags or some communication as to why said competitor has slowed down in the MIDDLE of a track with no runoff? Come on, you can do better.

Verstappen's dubious pretense of relinquishing the position started this chain reaction. Any attempt to lay blame with Hamilton is a stretch.

What about these two events they weren't fighting for a WDC so why the need for such defence.

Further evidence that any racer would be dumb to put trust in this guy.

Let's just wait until someone gets hurt.

[rifrafs2kees]

Double post.

[LM10]

This was the craziest race I’ve seen. I was lost for words yesterday and you could tell that even most of the team members of both sides were somewhat shocked.

As for the incident between Max and Lewis, I’m asking myself if what the stewards wrote in a part of the reasoning of the penalty does make sense? They’ve written that both drivers avoided to pass the DRS line first, but wasn’t Hamilton actually unaware of Max letting him pass at that point and therefore couldn’t have even thought of reacting to Max’ tactics? Or was it simply instinctive?