This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
though after Jeddah, a potential red flag may have given an unfair advantage again to Max.
You mean that same unfair advantage hamilton enjoyed in Imola, allowing him to score 18 points instead of realistic maximum of 6? Season is 22 races, not just the last few ones.
I think you misunderstood me; I was referring to a safety car happening earlier and then Mercedes having to decide what's best knowing that the race will definitely be restarted earlier. E.g. the "smart" play then would be to come in and pit for fresh tires and concede track position, knowing the race will definitely be restarted.
If Max comes in too, no damage done and both have equal chances. If RedBull gamble and stay out, there's still a chance the race director might throw a red flag (like in Jeddah) and that decision then would have of course influenced the race, netting a free pitstop and track position for Max. Either way, Mercedes was in a no-win situation.
Really not going to comment on Imola as it's not relevant to anything I wrote.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
I thought this was a very good video from Peter Windsor
[video][/video]
He touches on some very good points.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
OK. So we have an appeal from Mercedes and no matter who wins the appeal the 2021 WDC title is now tarnished.
So what happens now... I suggest to avoid another repeat of this debacle.
1. Somebody like Ross Brawn or Stefano Domenicali, or others, to sit down and draft a set of rules that clean up the current rule book. These will need to be in place for start of 2022 season.
a. Take away the ambiguities.
b. Remove the chance for a repeat performance by an weak, inept Race Director.
c. Tighten up what constitutes a fair overtake.
d. Reconsider the use of the tarmac areas, e.g. any incursion into them causes a 5 second penalty, pushing of another driver that causes such an incursion by a driver into the run off areas incurs a 10 second penalty. We need to make it totally clear that the racing only happens between the white lines of the track. (I would say put in armco at the edges but that would be deemed to be a safety hazard and I agree).
These new rules are discussed with teams but may not be vetoed and if no agreement reached then imposed. (Suck it up Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR, it is not all about you).
2. Remove the current Race Director as he is inept, multiple examples through the year 2021 and also 2020.
3. Introduce a rotating (or permanent for 1 year) panel of five members of ex-drivers who adjudicate all incidents. No member of the panel can have an association current or past 5-10 years with any racing team (especially Mercedes, RBR, Ferrari, Maclaren). The Race Director has no voting rights in these adjudications.
4. No chat, questions or comment from teams to the Race Director in the race over incidents. The race director and stewards decide what is reviewed and only if interviewed by stewards do teams or drivers get to attend or talk.
Now the contentious.
5. Make the Sprint races a part of every weekend or drop them totally. If every weekend then have a separate Sprint world champion driver, but not constructor, title.
Ok so my post about merc creating a breakaway series has been deleted for some reason.
The Merc brand are fully within their rights to do whatever they want with their race team. And it is fully relevant to the '2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team' discussion. And there are other posters who were discussing whether Merc should pull out or not. So, what gives? With that out of the way, let me reminisce what I wrote as much as I can:
No one would blame merc if they created a breakaway series, after the shambles yesterday. They really only need to convince that one team, because they and their customers (along with Merc + theirs), constitute 7 teams. Plus, if that one team is swayed, their customers, and Merc's customers are more than likely to follow to the breakaway series.
Let the remaining 3 teams(2 in reality, with one of them having 4 cars), scramble to get 12-14 more cars on the grid for their crooked series.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk
(There was a post about Merc walking out of F1. I guess it disappeared due f- word inside)
I do not expect this to happen.
But there are key decisions to be made in the near future. Next engine regulations, new technical rules may need to be adjusted, I can even imagine RB being in a need of making changes on reliability ground and so on.
There are also places outside of F1 where Red Bull and Mercedes/Daimler are being present, and the former may want the latter on its side.
FIA is much more than F1, as well, and soured relation with Mercedes may not serve them well.
FIA and Liberty are also very keen to bring new OEMs to F1. For OEMs Motorsport is about showing their technical capabilities, idea of being screwed in the sake of a creating cheap drama can make them thing twice.
They admitted their mistake with the lapped cars and missing lap, but at the same time tried to deflect from this by stating that the safety car came in after the "SC in this lap"-signal.
No wonder that Mercedes is preparing to appeal, they now just have to show that the "SC in this lap"-signal was given too early!
They admitted their mistake with the lapped cars and missing lap, but at the same time tried to deflect from this by stating that the safety car came in after the "SC in this lap"-signal.
No wonder that Mercedes is preparing to appeal, they now just have to show that the "SC in this lap"-signal was given too early!
Latest news suggest they are withdrawing the protest
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows
Ok so my post about merc creating a breakaway series has been deleted for some reason.
The Merc brand are fully within their rights to do whatever they want with their race team. And it is fully relevant to the '2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team' discussion. And there are other posters who were discussing whether Merc should pull out or not. So, what gives? With that out of the way, let me reminisce what I wrote as much as I can:
No one would blame merc if they created a breakaway series, after the shambles yesterday. They really only need to convince that one team, because they and their customers (along with Merc + theirs), constitute 7 teams. Plus, if that one team is swayed, their customers, and Merc's customers are more than likely to follow to the breakaway series.
Let the remaining 3 teams(2 in reality, with one of them having 4 cars), scramble to get 12-14 more cars on the grid for their crooked series.
Let them go, they have managed to ruin the sport, kill smaller teams and get an enormous advantage. If they aint satisfyed with 8 consecutive titles, then it is too bad for them. Even Ferrari was eventually slayed by FIA to stop their dominance, while Mercedes even got help during their period of dominance.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows
I didn't think Mercedes will go ahead with the appeal anyways. Its just bad PR for everybody even if Mercedes wins it in court. There will be some closed doors discussions and settlements and that's all there is to it. Ross Brawn already said that next year onwards he would prefer to end these negotiations between teams and the race control. I doubt that will happen either because its good drama and more drama means good for business.
Let them go, they have managed to ruin the sport, kill smaller teams and get an enormous advantage. If they aint satisfyed with 8 consecutive titles, then it is too bad for them. Even Ferrari was eventually slayed by FIA to stop their dominance, while Mercedes even got help during their period of dominance.
I don't see you objecting to the statement 'their crooked series'. Good to see we're in agreement on something for starters
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk
Going into this race, I was already 90% sure this was going to be a straight forward Max win - no discussion. RedBull and he really aced this season. They won races they shouldn't have - and those that they didn't, they maximized to the fullest. Winning the last 4 races of the season was a possibility of course, but I admit I didn't think it would happen.
To lose it all like this in the last lap... it stings. And dare I say - in my personal opinion - detracts from a masterful performance of Hamilton and the entire Mercedes team and crew. They absolutely nailed everything yesterday.
Was the show better for it? For that one-lap spectacle? In my opinion no - and I'd like to think had the roles been reversed, I would feel the same way. Back in 2016 when Rosberg won the championship, I was bitter over that DNF in Malaysia, but in the end, he did the job over the season and as Rosberg was standing on the podium, I had the upmost respect for what he had achieved.
Same applies to Max - he drove the nuts of that car on so many occasion, rarely put a foot wrong and maximized every single opportunity. Over the course of the entire season, I dare say, this was theirs to lose and they - again, over the course of a season, absolutely are worthy champions.
My rage is solely directed at the FIA, F1 and yes, Michael Masi, for opting for that one lap spectacle at the end. This IMO takes away the credibility of what has been achieved and the authenticity of it. I also strongly don't like the sprint races, the red flags and standing restarts, as their sole purpose is to create chaos where none is necessary. I'm a motorsport fan and with that, I accept that motorsport can be inherently one-sided, boring at times. I hate that they feel that they have to produce something like this - even including certain racing incidents that were swept under the carpet all in the name of "the show".
My anger is at F1 for turning this last race into a farce and devaluing what a great season we had and also - in my opinion, devaluing the championship as a result. Max didn't deserve this, neither did Hamilton.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Going into this race, I was already 90% sure this was going to be a straight forward Max win - no discussion. RedBull and he really aced this season. They won races they shouldn't have - and those that they didn't, they maximized to the fullest. Winning the last 4 races of the season was a possibility of course, but I admit I didn't think it would happen.
To lose it all like this in the last lap... it stings. And dare I say - in my personal opinion - detracts from a masterful performance of Hamilton and the entire Mercedes team and crew. They absolutely nailed everything yesterday.
Was the show better for it? For that one-lap spectacle? In my opinion no - and I'd like to think had the roles been reversed, I would feel the same way. Back in 2016 when Rosberg won the championship, I was bitter over that DNF in Malaysia, but in the end, he did the job over the season and as Rosberg was standing on the podium, I had the upmost respect for what he had achieved.
Same applies to Max - he drove the nuts of that car on so many occasion, rarely put a foot wrong and maximized every single opportunity. Over the course of the entire season, I dare say, this was theirs to lose and they - again, over the course of a season, absolutely are worthy champions.
My rage is solely directed at the FIA, F1 and yes, Michael Masi, for opting for that one lap spectacle at the end. This IMO takes away the credibility of what has been achieved and the authenticity of it. I also strongly don't like the sprint races, the red flags and standing restarts, as their sole purpose is to create chaos where none is necessary. I'm a motorsport fan and with that, I accept that motorsport can be inherently one-sided, boring at times. I hate that they feel that they have to produce something like this - even including certain racing incidents that were swept under the carpet all in the name of "the show".
My anger is at F1 for turning this last race into a farce and devaluing what a great season we had and also - in my opinion, devaluing the championship as a result. Max didn't deserve this, neither did Hamilton.
Phil, as an RB fan, I fully support this post and can completely understand the sentiment.
Going into this race, I was already 90% sure this was going to be a straight forward Max win - no discussion. RedBull and he really aced this season. They won races they shouldn't have - and those that they didn't, they maximized to the fullest. Winning the last 4 races of the season was a possibility of course, but I admit I didn't think it would happen.
To lose it all like this in the last lap... it stings. And dare I say - in my personal opinion - detracts from a masterful performance of Hamilton and the entire Mercedes team and crew. They absolutely nailed everything yesterday.
Was the show better for it? For that one-lap spectacle? In my opinion no - and I'd like to think had the roles been reversed, I would feel the same way. Back in 2016 when Rosberg won the championship, I was bitter over that DNF in Malaysia, but in the end, he did the job over the season and as Rosberg was standing on the podium, I had the upmost respect for what he had achieved.
Same applies to Max - he drove the nuts of that car on so many occasion, rarely put a foot wrong and maximized every single opportunity. Over the course of the entire season, I dare say, this was theirs to lose and they - again, over the course of a season, absolutely are worthy champions.
My rage is solely directed at the FIA, F1 and yes, Michael Masi, for opting for that one lap spectacle at the end. This IMO takes away the credibility of what has been achieved and the authenticity of it. I also strongly don't like the sprint races, the red flags and standing restarts, as their sole purpose is to create chaos where none is necessary. I'm a motorsport fan and with that, I accept that motorsport can be inherently one-sided, boring at times. I hate that they feel that they have to produce something like this - even including certain racing incidents that were swept under the carpet all in the name of "the show".
My anger is at F1 for turning this last race into a farce and devaluing what a great season we had and also - in my opinion, devaluing the championship as a result. Max didn't deserve this, neither did Hamilton.
Phil, as an RB fan, I fully support this post and can completely understand the sentiment.
I agree with all of this as well, but add in that I have a significant issue with a very small subset of the orange army(not you), who can only see their preferred outcome.
Continued failure to apply the rules properly and consistency by the FIA is going to get a driver killed. Some drivers will push the limits even farther while defending, some will take even bigger risks while attacking. Under the guise of "let them race", it's all ok. Now with Massi manipulating the rules for the sake of the show, both parties are going to be put under even more pressure, and will take even greater risks.
Mercedes hasn't posted anything on social media (Facebook & Twitter) about winning the constructors championship.
I can understand that they are in no mood to celebrate, if they had come to the race with the second best car or if Lewis didn't perform and made mistakes the loss would be understandable.
The W12 was the best car and Lewis drove perfectly, he and the team have been incredibly hard done by.
I can't see them getting anywhere with the appeal, I just hope that they will not decide to walk away from F1.
Lewis and Mercedes must feel robbed, I know I do as a fan.
Mercedes is a multi billion dollar organisation. Fia are playing with fire by letting one man dictate the rules on his own terms. Wouldn't be surprised to see them pull out and stop all development of their engines so all the teams that signed contracts burn too. Mutually assured destruction.
It was Merc that got screwed over this time, but the other teams are not stupid, they can see it could easily be them next time, and this should include Red Bull.
They need to tackle this as a single bloc
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
