Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Sasha
Sasha
63
Joined: 07 Jul 2013, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hopefully Wazari just retires from F1 but takes on another dream of winning Le Mans.

Hey guys wouldn't it be fun watching and reading about Red Bull Honda Hypercar racing in WEC and Le Mans?
With Wazari giving us inner circle updates.

Merry Christmas and happy New Year to all!!!

hkbruin
hkbruin
6
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 19:58

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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@Wazari-san, can you maybe convince the Honda brass to come out with a new sports car to commemorate Max and Honda’s historic achievement? :) Perhaps a new S2xxx or will it be an all-electric NSX? I’m curious to know how this championship has inspired Honda as a brand. I feel immensely proud to wear my RB Honda gear around town. I also thought that Acura’s presence at Austin was a huge plus and it was sheer excitement watching Max win. (I was kind of bummed that they didn’t let the NSX run with the other supercars during the inter-session runs -maybe because it would outshine them!)

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Wazari
623
Joined: 17 Jun 2015, 15:49

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hkbruin wrote:
19 Dec 2021, 18:22
@Wazari-san, can you maybe convince the Honda brass to come out with a new sports car to commemorate Max and Honda’s historic achievement? :) Perhaps a new S2xxx or will it be an all-electric NSX? I’m curious to know how this championship has inspired Honda as a brand. I feel immensely proud to wear my RB Honda gear around town. I also thought that Acura’s presence at Austin was a huge plus and it was sheer excitement watching Max win. (I was kind of bummed that they didn’t let the NSX run with the other supercars during the inter-session runs -maybe because it would outshine them!)
偶々辛抱すると、いい 事が 起きます。
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

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Wouter
111
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
19 Dec 2021, 20:32
hkbruin wrote:
19 Dec 2021, 18:22
@Wazari-san, can you maybe convince the Honda brass to come out with a new sports car to commemorate Max and Honda’s historic achievement? :) Perhaps a new S2xxx or will it be an all-electric NSX? I’m curious to know how this championship has inspired Honda as a brand. I feel immensely proud to wear my RB Honda gear around town. I also thought that Acura’s presence at Austin was a huge plus and it was sheer excitement watching Max win. (I was kind of bummed that they didn’t let the NSX run with the other supercars during the inter-session runs -maybe because it would outshine them!)
.
偶々辛抱すると、いい 事が 起きます。
:)👍
The Power of Dreams!

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TEHNOS
8
Joined: 03 Nov 2011, 19:02

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
19 Dec 2021, 09:17
tok-tokkie wrote:
19 Dec 2021, 09:04
Wazari may you enjoy your return to retirement. It was a job really well done which will give you much satisfaction.

I post this picture again. It gave me much pleasure.
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/wp-cont ... e=1280,854
マクスは 私 みたいに感謝しています。
=D>

Xray
Xray
0
Joined: 30 Oct 2019, 14:15

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
18 Dec 2021, 07:52
A beautiful Saturday afternoon. I want to say thank you to those who offered words of kindness during some difficult times and also words of encouragement as we continued our F1 journey. Whether Max or Lewis had won the WDC this year, I am very proud of what Honda and our “skunkworks” team has accomplished over the past seven years. I knew this day would come when we started this latest F1 project as it was estimated to be no more than an 8 to 10 year project.

I am really ready to retire now as well everyone on our unofficial team. I lost a dear friend of mine last year whose idea it was to form this team and help HRD with the F1 program after the terrible start in 2015. I am grateful to Toro Rosso, Red Bull and McLaren for allowing Honda to put their PU behind their drivers. It was my friend who convinced me to “get my head out of the clouds and put it to good use” and join this team. He had been with Honda since 1973 and was my mentor when I first joined Honda about forty years ago. I will never forget when we walked into HRD in Sakura the first day this last go-around and realized that we were on average over 30 years older than the rest of the engineers and staff there. I have seen “Old guys rule” T-shirts and bumper stickers in the U.S. and I think I know what I will buy my fellow team members for Christmas.

There were many internal obstacles and external influences that had to be overcome to get the 621 PU built the way we wanted it and to get it on the track this season knowing that this would be Honda’s last official year in F1. Fortunately we had some key proponents and an open-minded president willing to take on one on one meetings with people like myself to hear our side of the story. There were some key people against some or all of our ideas. The camshaft relocation and piston redesign were big changes that met opposition. Other challenges were changing the firing order to try and minimize exhaust pulses going into the turbine and convincing some people to get the Honda/GE jet engine people involved in development of the turbo. I think I have mentioned it here also that the blade/vane design of the turbine and compressor in the turbo are more important than the physical size itself. Luckily an old college mate of mine at Nagoya University was a key contributor to the “Kumamoto plating” process that was implemented to increase reliability of the cylinders and rings. This process is not a secret as some seem to think as it is patented and well published but it was his suggestion to use it on the F1 PU. Lastly redesigning the block so that the cylinder #1 is on the right hand side was also met with opposition because “You know, the #1 cylinder should be on the left hand side”….So needless to say, it has been quite the journey. We knew Mercedes was the bar. They build wonderful, beautiful pieces of machinery. The W12 is an excellent car. The 16B was also a big improvement over last year’s car but we knew we had to at least match the Mercedes PU with regards to power and reliability to give the 16B a fighting chance to compete and I think we accomplished that this year. Red Bull never gave up as they constantly brought upgrades this season. Not all of them worked as planned but they never quit nor did we. Also a big thanks to Mobil. The fuel and lubricants they developed for us was a significant factor to our progress.

One thing I want to mention is that sometimes we take for granted what is around us for inspiration. Since I grew up near Mishima city in Shizuoka-ken, my family would take many day trips to Hakone and since I was a baby, I must have seen Mt. Fuji from Hakone literally thousands and thousands of times. The view from Hakone and Lake Kawaguchi are my favorite. I could stare at Fuji-san and never get tired of her profile. Fuji-san was the inspiration for the piston crown. The slope, the crater, etc. nature’s gift to machinery. Funny and mysterious the way things work.

Next year Red Bull will be fine. I have spent a lot of time in Milton Keynes the first half of this year and the investment Red Bull has put into their PU division is impressive. The facility they built is first class and they have hired key Honda staff for this transition. Although Honda’s name will not be on the PU, it is a Honda. It will still be manufactured and assembled by Honda for at least another year. So I am not worried about next year. Again thank you again for all your support and congratulations to everyone at Red Bull and Max for the fine job. I would like people to remember that the WCC and WDC are not determined by one race but an accumulation of points won over 22 races determines the winner. In my opinion both Red Bull and Mercedes were both lucky and unlucky throughout the season. I will not miss the ugly politics of F1 and a big part of me is relieved that I am no longer at part of this circus. I wish everyone a Happy Holidays and Happy New Year. Be safe and good to yourself and fellow human.
Thank you for all your efforts and the regular updates here. Enjoy Fuji again with new eyes!

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MtthsMlw
1036
Joined: 12 Jul 2017, 18:38
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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2015 - 2021
Image

Image

Maybe someone wants to buy this
https://www.as-books.jp/books/info.php?no=AST20211224

gruntguru
gruntguru
566
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Great post. Love that first image. (Must be Japanese with that Right-to-Left timeline :o )
je suis charlie

DR30
DR30
0
Joined: 26 Jul 2020, 04:23

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
18 Dec 2021, 07:52
A beautiful Saturday afternoon. I want to say thank you to those who offered words of kindness during some difficult times and also words of encouragement as we continued our F1 journey. Whether Max or Lewis had won the WDC this year, I am very proud of what Honda and our “skunkworks” team has accomplished over the past seven years. I knew this day would come when we started this latest F1 project as it was estimated to be no more than an 8 to 10 year project.

I am really ready to retire now as well everyone on our unofficial team. I lost a dear friend of mine last year whose idea it was to form this team and help HRD with the F1 program after the terrible start in 2015. I am grateful to Toro Rosso, Red Bull and McLaren for allowing Honda to put their PU behind their drivers. It was my friend who convinced me to “get my head out of the clouds and put it to good use” and join this team. He had been with Honda since 1973 and was my mentor when I first joined Honda about forty years ago. I will never forget when we walked into HRD in Sakura the first day this last go-around and realized that we were on average over 30 years older than the rest of the engineers and staff there. I have seen “Old guys rule” T-shirts and bumper stickers in the U.S. and I think I know what I will buy my fellow team members for Christmas.

There were many internal obstacles and external influences that had to be overcome to get the 621 PU built the way we wanted it and to get it on the track this season knowing that this would be Honda’s last official year in F1. Fortunately we had some key proponents and an open-minded president willing to take on one on one meetings with people like myself to hear our side of the story. There were some key people against some or all of our ideas. The camshaft relocation and piston redesign were big changes that met opposition. Other challenges were changing the firing order to try and minimize exhaust pulses going into the turbine and convincing some people to get the Honda/GE jet engine people involved in development of the turbo. I think I have mentioned it here also that the blade/vane design of the turbine and compressor in the turbo are more important than the physical size itself. Luckily an old college mate of mine at Nagoya University was a key contributor to the “Kumamoto plating” process that was implemented to increase reliability of the cylinders and rings. This process is not a secret as some seem to think as it is patented and well published but it was his suggestion to use it on the F1 PU. Lastly redesigning the block so that the cylinder #1 is on the right hand side was also met with opposition because “You know, the #1 cylinder should be on the left hand side”….So needless to say, it has been quite the journey. We knew Mercedes was the bar. They build wonderful, beautiful pieces of machinery. The W12 is an excellent car. The 16B was also a big improvement over last year’s car but we knew we had to at least match the Mercedes PU with regards to power and reliability to give the 16B a fighting chance to compete and I think we accomplished that this year. Red Bull never gave up as they constantly brought upgrades this season. Not all of them worked as planned but they never quit nor did we. Also a big thanks to Mobil. The fuel and lubricants they developed for us was a significant factor to our progress.

One thing I want to mention is that sometimes we take for granted what is around us for inspiration. Since I grew up near Mishima city in Shizuoka-ken, my family would take many day trips to Hakone and since I was a baby, I must have seen Mt. Fuji from Hakone literally thousands and thousands of times. The view from Hakone and Lake Kawaguchi are my favorite. I could stare at Fuji-san and never get tired of her profile. Fuji-san was the inspiration for the piston crown. The slope, the crater, etc. nature’s gift to machinery. Funny and mysterious the way things work.

Next year Red Bull will be fine. I have spent a lot of time in Milton Keynes the first half of this year and the investment Red Bull has put into their PU division is impressive. The facility they built is first class and they have hired key Honda staff for this transition. Although Honda’s name will not be on the PU, it is a Honda. It will still be manufactured and assembled by Honda for at least another year. So I am not worried about next year. Again thank you again for all your support and congratulations to everyone at Red Bull and Max for the fine job. I would like people to remember that the WCC and WDC are not determined by one race but an accumulation of points won over 22 races determines the winner. In my opinion both Red Bull and Mercedes were both lucky and unlucky throughout the season. I will not miss the ugly politics of F1 and a big part of me is relieved that I am no longer at part of this circus. I wish everyone a Happy Holidays and Happy New Year. Be safe and good to yourself and fellow human.
Congratulations again thank you for all you have contributed.
Would you mind elaborating on the parts that I highlighted regarding the exhaust pulses and why number 1 position was changed?

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
211
Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I would love to know more about the piston. I’ve sent that to a few people in the industry and they love the imagery of comparing it to Mt. Fuji as well as how well it was articulated. Almost poetry.

I’m assuming changing the no. 1 cylinder (front most) had to do with managing harmonic balances with the firing order change (to manage the pulse intervals) to the turbo, with the way it was all packaged.

At least that’s my guess.

gruntguru
gruntguru
566
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What's in a number?
je suis charlie

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
211
Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
22 Dec 2021, 03:28
What's in a number?
I’m assuming by changing no. 1, it means either the left or right bank is now leading, which was probably necessitated by the firing order change and how the turbo is packaged.

You probably know that though. ;)

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
642
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
22 Dec 2021, 03:38
gruntguru wrote:
22 Dec 2021, 03:28
What's in a number?
I’m assuming by changing no. 1, it means either the left or right bank is now leading, which was probably necessitated by the firing order change and how the turbo is packaged....
iirc and imo etc ....
there was much discussion about 6 years ago re different V6 firing orders ..... and ....
gg said all the apparently different firing orders were actually identical ...

.. I said that a possible difference was if the orders within the 2 banks were 'different' (to each other) ...ie .............
if left bank sequence was beginning-middle-end cylinders and right bank sequence was beginning-end-middle ......
with the usual airbox that order could have an effect on the inconsistency of cylinder filling and combustion ....
(as has been shown eg on the F1 NA V10 Ferrari to be caused by inconsistent behaviours in the induction tracts )
this could be particularly important at the unprecedentedly high borderline-unreliable AFRs used in F1 ICEs since 2014
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 22 Dec 2021, 15:03, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
KAIZEN
80
Joined: 14 Aug 2018, 01:56
Location: Japan

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
18 Dec 2021, 07:52
A beautiful Saturday afternoon. I want to say thank you to those who offered words of kindness during some difficult times and also words of encouragement as we continued our F1 journey. Whether Max or Lewis had won the WDC this year, I am very proud of what Honda and our “skunkworks” team has accomplished over the past seven years. I knew this day would come when we started this latest F1 project as it was estimated to be no more than an 8 to 10 year project.

I am really ready to retire now as well everyone on our unofficial team. I lost a dear friend of mine last year whose idea it was to form this team and help HRD with the F1 program after the terrible start in 2015. I am grateful to Toro Rosso, Red Bull and McLaren for allowing Honda to put their PU behind their drivers. It was my friend who convinced me to “get my head out of the clouds and put it to good use” and join this team. He had been with Honda since 1973 and was my mentor when I first joined Honda about forty years ago. I will never forget when we walked into HRD in Sakura the first day this last go-around and realized that we were on average over 30 years older than the rest of the engineers and staff there. I have seen “Old guys rule” T-shirts and bumper stickers in the U.S. and I think I know what I will buy my fellow team members for Christmas.

There were many internal obstacles and external influences that had to be overcome to get the 621 PU built the way we wanted it and to get it on the track this season knowing that this would be Honda’s last official year in F1. Fortunately we had some key proponents and an open-minded president willing to take on one on one meetings with people like myself to hear our side of the story. There were some key people against some or all of our ideas. The camshaft relocation and piston redesign were big changes that met opposition. Other challenges were changing the firing order to try and minimize exhaust pulses going into the turbine and convincing some people to get the Honda/GE jet engine people involved in development of the turbo. I think I have mentioned it here also that the blade/vane design of the turbine and compressor in the turbo are more important than the physical size itself. Luckily an old college mate of mine at Nagoya University was a key contributor to the “Kumamoto plating” process that was implemented to increase reliability of the cylinders and rings. This process is not a secret as some seem to think as it is patented and well published but it was his suggestion to use it on the F1 PU. Lastly redesigning the block so that the cylinder #1 is on the right hand side was also met with opposition because “You know, the #1 cylinder should be on the left hand side”….So needless to say, it has been quite the journey. We knew Mercedes was the bar. They build wonderful, beautiful pieces of machinery. The W12 is an excellent car. The 16B was also a big improvement over last year’s car but we knew we had to at least match the Mercedes PU with regards to power and reliability to give the 16B a fighting chance to compete and I think we accomplished that this year. Red Bull never gave up as they constantly brought upgrades this season. Not all of them worked as planned but they never quit nor did we. Also a big thanks to Mobil. The fuel and lubricants they developed for us was a significant factor to our progress.

One thing I want to mention is that sometimes we take for granted what is around us for inspiration. Since I grew up near Mishima city in Shizuoka-ken, my family would take many day trips to Hakone and since I was a baby, I must have seen Mt. Fuji from Hakone literally thousands and thousands of times. The view from Hakone and Lake Kawaguchi are my favorite. I could stare at Fuji-san and never get tired of her profile. Fuji-san was the inspiration for the piston crown. The slope, the crater, etc. nature’s gift to machinery. Funny and mysterious the way things work.

Next year Red Bull will be fine. I have spent a lot of time in Milton Keynes the first half of this year and the investment Red Bull has put into their PU division is impressive. The facility they built is first class and they have hired key Honda staff for this transition. Although Honda’s name will not be on the PU, it is a Honda. It will still be manufactured and assembled by Honda for at least another year. So I am not worried about next year. Again thank you again for all your support and congratulations to everyone at Red Bull and Max for the fine job. I would like people to remember that the WCC and WDC are not determined by one race but an accumulation of points won over 22 races determines the winner. In my opinion both Red Bull and Mercedes were both lucky and unlucky throughout the season. I will not miss the ugly politics of F1 and a big part of me is relieved that I am no longer at part of this circus. I wish everyone a Happy Holidays and Happy New Year. Be safe and good to yourself and fellow human.
wazari san お疲れ様でした。
I'm sorry to everyone in the forum, but I'm sorry in Japanese.
ホンダの復帰と共にこのフォーラムを見るようになり。
まさか内部情報を得られるなんてと驚きました。
私自身、ホンダがトップに立つ事を願っており、2021年シーズンが現実になった事に深く感謝致します。
2021PUの構想が、2017年に破棄されていなければ、もっと早くにキャッチアップ出来ていたかもしれませんね。

本当に有意義なお時間を頂きありがとうございました。
“skunkworks” team forever

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godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I suppose they had to put 2017 evolution on hold because they wanted to be safe at TR before. I don't think the events could have transpired any differently to the way they did. It was meant to happen. It's good to know that Honda is putting their championship winning engine on display. It usually means the new power unit is a further evolution with enough changes that makes the 2021 version obsolete. With a ~10% reduction in energy content in the fuel, if they manage to improve the power unit despite the fuel induced handicap, this is good news indeed.
Saishū kōnā