Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

I hope you watched the video I posted. Any comments?

It's inaccessible. Either because you provided a broken link, or some other reason. So, no.

Even the base domain doesn't seem to load.

Ok.
Found a youtube substitute.

[KAIZEN]

It is a combustion video of the Honda engine released on TV.
This combustion is used from 2018 spec 3.

[Hoffman900]

Can we talk about the 2022 unit?

Apparently it's a new unit, what were the short comings of the 2021 iteration that need to be changed? I'm not seeing much, but I'm assuming it'll be focused around the combustion end of things.

The focus right now at least according to RBR top man is regaining the lost power compared to the power unit of last year by the use of the new fuel mandated for use this year.

I realize that, but that is true for all teams. The inclusion of 10% ethanol should necessitate an entire new design, unless I’m reading into “new” too deeply.

My guess from the outside the PU remains largely unchanged.

[Hoffman900]

It is a combustion video of the Honda engine released on TV.
This combustion is used from 2018 spec 3.

Man, does that go off late. Almost appears to light off very close to TDC.

I would LOVE to see the P-V diagram of that vs. the older TJI vs. port injection.

[dans79]

Trust me, I have no love for my neighbor's classic Shelby Cobra that is loud as hell and smells noxious. He's a 70+ ex-military retired police officer who loves his exhaust fumes and talks about all the negative environmental impact of EVs.

Is it a real one or a kit car?

[mzso]

Prototype fluoride-ion battery prototypes already exist. They aren't in the "theoretical" stage, your bookmarks are dated and need some updating. Here's one for starters: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Techno ... EV-battery
It requires cobalt, which is one of the problematic materials required for batteries and Japan is in the process of obtaining a supply from within it's territories. The projected commercial availability is early 2030s, and it may be used in non-commercial applications much sooner, be it F1/prototype racing, aviation, aerospace etc. You can go ahead and continue to carry your hopes in lithium all power to you. I'm just bringing to light what Honda is dabbing into, just like I was regarding their early research on carbon nano-tubes that actually was utilized in their F1 energy store. As a Honda fan I'm always intrigued by what is possible from their various efforts - its the power of dreams and even the sky isn't the limit. With their eVTOL and satellite launch vehicle initiatives, there's a lot of R&D that can be applied in various sectors. Plenty of time for it to be applied to the next F1 power unit formula.

There are always prototypes. Sadly products are usually nowhere. (BTW your original link was older)
Anyway I wouldn't worship one candidate. Many are in the air who knows which and when will land.
By the way beside cobalt lanthanum usage is not very promising, which is a proper rare-earth metal. Anyway, another bookmark for me.

[mzso]

Can we talk about the 2022 unit?

Apparently it's a new unit, what were the short comings of the 2021 iteration that need to be changed? I'm not seeing much, but I'm assuming it'll be focused around the combustion end of things.

It seems like there's a significant power deficit compared to a fresh Mercedes engine, judging by Brazil. So there's room for improvements. And seeing how 2021 went Mercedes is likely to seek out something strong as Honda's for the combustion chamber to prevent their PU from fading in power, and for extra reliability of course.

[mzso]

Mining of the raw materials posion the environment just as much as oil if not more. Some mines are not ethicaly operated. Current batteries are extremely expensive to recycle. The Lithium is limited and in a few countries and will be another strained Geo-political resource in due time. Battery obseletion is an issue too, among other issues.

All of this is unfounded propaganda. (Except the "ethical" stuff, which no-one actually cares about.)

Would you volunteer to work mining lithium in Bolivia, Chile or China?
Wasting huge amounts of water in deserts, very ecology-friendly, green and modern...

Not sure what you're getting at, but water isn't toxic, doesn't pollute.

[Hoffman900]

All of this is unfounded propaganda. (Except the "ethical" stuff, which no-one actually cares about.)

Would you volunteer to work mining lithium in Bolivia, Chile or China?
Wasting huge amounts of water in deserts, very ecology-friendly, green and modern...

Not sure what you're getting at, but water isn't toxic, doesn't pollute.

Can you guys take this argument to another thread? It has nothing to do with Honda's PU

[Hoffman900]

Can we talk about the 2022 unit?

Apparently it's a new unit, what were the short comings of the 2021 iteration that need to be changed? I'm not seeing much, but I'm assuming it'll be focused around the combustion end of things.

It seems like there's a significant power deficit compared to a fresh Mercedes engine, judging by Brazil. So there's room for improvements. And seeing how 2021 went Mercedes is likely to seek out something strong as Honda's for the combustion chamber to prevent their PU from fading in power, and for extra reliability of course.

The combustion chamber is the strongest part of the entire system.

Failure modes are the piston and rings, the latter being the most sensitive part in contact with pressure forces. The piston crown, but specifically the piston pin / pin bosses are the most under duress.

The failure mode for detonation in most engines is typically the rod bearings. The piston will eventually fail, but I've also seen a cracked main bearing cap in another engine from detonation alone.

Rapid combustion, as expressed by Honda's new combustion process will put more strain on all these parts.

Mercedes adding weight to the PU reminds me of drag racers realizing they could make more power by replacing their lightweight titanium piston pins with stronger steel units. By stiffening up the entire pin / piston, adding a slight amount of weight, they realized the ringland didn't deform nearly as much and were able to see less blowby. Not saying this is what Mercedes did, but it's certainly a good example of how adding weight is better.

[mzso]

The combustion chamber is the strongest part of the entire system.

Failure modes are the piston and rings, the latter being the most sensitive part in contact with pressure forces. The piston crown, but specifically the piston pin / pin bosses are the most under duress.

The failure mode for detonation in most engines is typically the rod bearings. The piston will eventually fail, but I've also seen a cracked main bearing cap in another engine from detonation alone.

Rapid combustion, as expressed by Honda's new combustion process will put more strain on all these parts.

Well, I can't say I have much of an understanding regarding this. But I remember the new material Honda is said to be using, and how they got extra power and better lifespan/reliability. So how and where did they use it?

[Hoffman900]

The combustion chamber is the strongest part of the entire system.

Failure modes are the piston and rings, the latter being the most sensitive part in contact with pressure forces. The piston crown, but specifically the piston pin / pin bosses are the most under duress.

The failure mode for detonation in most engines is typically the rod bearings. The piston will eventually fail, but I've also seen a cracked main bearing cap in another engine from detonation alone.

Rapid combustion, as expressed by Honda's new combustion process will put more strain on all these parts.

Well, I can't say I have much of an understanding regarding this. But I remember the new material Honda is said to be using, and how they got extra power and better lifespan/reliability. So how and where did they use it?

On the cylinder walls.

Heat is removed from the piston from the piston rings (and oil squirters, but most goes through the ring) into the cylinder walls. I am assuming it reduces friction (heat) but also allows better thermal transfer between the rings and walls. If you notice with the new combustion process, combustion originates from the outer edge (in a controlled way). I am not sure what that means for the rings and pistons (especially in the area between the top land and crown) in terms of reliability, but presumably it's hard enough on them to necessitate the use of this coating.

Also by using this plating it is reported they were able move the bore centers closer as they don't need as much mass between them. Not sure how they overcame the bore liner stiffness but reportedly they did. Obviously I can't verify that other than an article online that wasn't from Honda, so take that with a grain of salt.

The valves and valve seats also take a beating, especially the exhaust valve, but that, by every account I can find, is not where it's used.

[gruntguru]

It is a combustion video of the Honda engine released on TV.
This combustion is used from 2018 spec 3.

Great find Kaizen.

If you run through the second chamber video freezing frames as you go, the flame around the edge of the chamber appears before you see flame coming out of the jets. Either this ignition is completely spontaneous or perhaps a shock wave has emanated from the pre-chamber before the jets are seen.

[Hoffman900]

It is a combustion video of the Honda engine released on TV.
This combustion is used from 2018 spec 3.

Great find Kaizen.

If you run through the second chamber video freezing frames as you go, the flame around the edge of the chamber appears before you see flame coming out of the jets. Either this ignition is completely spontaneous or perhaps a shock wave has emanated from the pre-chamber before the jets are seen.

You can see it meet the jets about halfway across the piston crown. It’s incredible. Sent it to a few people industry people already.

[Zynerji]

It looks like they propagate a Shockwave across the cylinder roof, and another across the crown of the piston, and make them converge in the head-gasket crevice.

Maybe that's how the 2021 Honda heads shrunk? Maybe they used the BMW head-on-cylinder casting method, and it's a machined crevice of particular design?