2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Stu]

Plausible, this is also why I suggested the other day that the RBR Engines could be targeted towards 2026 power plants.
Does anyone know whether the HRE site in Milton Keynes is still going to be operational now that there has been a change of heart at Honda?

[Sasha]

RB Will not touch the PU. This was agreed upon and helps RB and VAG in 2026 so they can be classed as a new manufacturer with a higher cost cap to develop the engine.

[Sasha]

RB Will not touch the PU. This was agreed upon and helps RB and VAG in 2026 so they can be classed as a new manufacturer with a higher cost cap to develop the engine.

[Sasha]

I bet Honda will be on the rear wing and a H on the nose.

[SmallSoldier]

Can't really understand Honda's thinking! Classic Japanese nonsense...

They'll continue to build engines for Red Bull yet they won't have the Honda name on them!

The engines are frozen so their move to pull out makes absolutely no sense at all! Since they'll continue to make the parts what's the point in pulling out?? No engine development=No costs of development!

I think Honda's pull out has more to do with their image "no more CO2 emissions, we're going green" ** than with the costs of engine building! I mean there isn't any other explanation...

**Yet they're still racing in Indycar without any kind of hybrid systems...

I have to agree… I don’t understand the move, why “quit” F1 when:

- You have achieved the level of performance needed to be successful
- You have already invested heavily into the project and additional investment will be minimal
- The engines are frozen
- You will continue to manufacture the engines and support your “customers”

I am afraid that the decision to exit was done before the above was in place, but I can’t find a reason not to reverse that decision… Unless is simply an ego thing.

I don’t buy that it is because of wanting to have a “green image”… At the end, everyone knows that they will continue to support RBR/AT with the manufacturing of engines.

Marketing. Honda, just as Mercedes, Renault and Fiat’s brands want to have a more green image in support to their EV switch. A bit more then a year ago Mercedes announced that AMG is going the main name for their team (a brand in their stable that isn’t perceived as green anyway), Renault switched to the Alpine name for that reason and Fiat and co already have Alfa and Ferrari of course. If Honda could have done a “AMG” status of Mugen instead of the Type-R badge, but they didn’t..

I understand what you are saying in regards to Marketing themselves as a “Green Company”, but I have a hard time believing that’s the reason behind it… They participate in: Indy Car, World Touring Cup, Super GT and Super Formula (not counting the 7 different bike championships they also participate in as a works team)… In addition, the image was never the issue for their participation in F1, as stated by Honda themselves the reason to pull out was to assign the Formula 1 resources to development of “Green” technologies… With engines frozen, they can still reassign their F1 engineers to develop future technology.

I also don’t agree with the naming argument… The silver cars are still called “Mercedes - AMG Petronas”, there is no hiding Mercedes in that one… Renault with Alpine? They relaunched Alpine not long ago and want to make it their “Sport Car” division, they did for publicity not because of environmental perception… The fact that FIA shows Alfa as a second brand (in addition to Ferrari) is simply because it’s the only other one with F1 pedigree (I doubt they would have branded it Jeep, hahaha… Maybe Maserati could have been an option, but no pedigree and not necessarily an sports car brand like Alfa).

[SmallSoldier]

Plausible, this is also why I suggested the other day that the RBR Engines could be targeted towards 2026 power plants.
Does anyone know whether the HRE site in Milton Keynes is still going to be operational now that there has been a change of heart at Honda?

I wonder if the story is true… What happens to all the people that were hired by Red Bull to support the manufacturing of Honda engines in Minton Keynes?

[diffuser]

I have to agree… I don’t understand the move, why “quit” F1 when:

- You have achieved the level of performance needed to be successful
- You have already invested heavily into the project and additional investment will be minimal
- The engines are frozen
- You will continue to manufacture the engines and support your “customers”

I am afraid that the decision to exit was done before the above was in place, but I can’t find a reason not to reverse that decision… Unless is simply an ego thing.

I don’t buy that it is because of wanting to have a “green image”… At the end, everyone knows that they will continue to support RBR/AT with the manufacturing of engines.

Marketing. Honda, just as Mercedes, Renault and Fiat’s brands want to have a more green image in support to their EV switch. A bit more then a year ago Mercedes announced that AMG is going the main name for their team (a brand in their stable that isn’t perceived as green anyway), Renault switched to the Alpine name for that reason and Fiat and co already have Alfa and Ferrari of course. If Honda could have done a “AMG” status of Mugen instead of the Type-R badge, but they didn’t..

I understand what you are saying in regards to Marketing themselves as a “Green Company”, but I have a hard time believing that’s the reason behind it… They participate in: Indy Car, World Touring Cup, Super GT and Super Formula (not counting the 7 different bike championships they also participate in as a works team)… In addition, the image was never the issue for their participation in F1, as stated by Honda themselves the reason to pull out was to assign the Formula 1 resources to development of “Green” technologies… With engines frozen, they can still reassign their F1 engineers to develop future technology.

I also don’t agree with the naming argument… The silver cars are still called “Mercedes - AMG Petronas”, there is no hiding Mercedes in that one… Renault with Alpine? They relaunched Alpine not long ago and want to make it their “Sport Car” division, they did for publicity not because of environmental perception… The fact that FIA shows Alfa as a second brand (in addition to Ferrari) is simply because it’s the only other one with F1 pedigree (I doubt they would have branded it Jeep, hahaha… Maybe Maserati could have been an option, but no pedigree and not necessarily an sports car brand like Alfa).

I beleive the Honda board made a decision without really knowing what was going on in F1. They had said they wanted to redirect the funding to EVs. It's clear to everyone here that from 2022, the PU investment will be greatly reduced. I mean if RBR/ATR have to pay for the engines, they could probably break even.

[Jolle]

I have to agree… I don’t understand the move, why “quit” F1 when:

- You have achieved the level of performance needed to be successful
- You have already invested heavily into the project and additional investment will be minimal
- The engines are frozen
- You will continue to manufacture the engines and support your “customers”

I am afraid that the decision to exit was done before the above was in place, but I can’t find a reason not to reverse that decision… Unless is simply an ego thing.

I don’t buy that it is because of wanting to have a “green image”… At the end, everyone knows that they will continue to support RBR/AT with the manufacturing of engines.

Marketing. Honda, just as Mercedes, Renault and Fiat’s brands want to have a more green image in support to their EV switch. A bit more then a year ago Mercedes announced that AMG is going the main name for their team (a brand in their stable that isn’t perceived as green anyway), Renault switched to the Alpine name for that reason and Fiat and co already have Alfa and Ferrari of course. If Honda could have done a “AMG” status of Mugen instead of the Type-R badge, but they didn’t..

I understand what you are saying in regards to Marketing themselves as a “Green Company”, but I have a hard time believing that’s the reason behind it… They participate in: Indy Car, World Touring Cup, Super GT and Super Formula (not counting the 7 different bike championships they also participate in as a works team)… In addition, the image was never the issue for their participation in F1, as stated by Honda themselves the reason to pull out was to assign the Formula 1 resources to development of “Green” technologies… With engines frozen, they can still reassign their F1 engineers to develop future technology.

I also don’t agree with the naming argument… The silver cars are still called “Mercedes - AMG Petronas”, there is no hiding Mercedes in that one… Renault with Alpine? They relaunched Alpine not long ago and want to make it their “Sport Car” division, they did for publicity not because of environmental perception… The fact that FIA shows Alfa as a second brand (in addition to Ferrari) is simply because it’s the only other one with F1 pedigree (I doubt they would have branded it Jeep, hahaha… Maybe Maserati could have been an option, but no pedigree and not necessarily an sports car brand like Alfa).

The factual money doesn't matter, for a company as Honda, the F1 project is small. But it's all about perception. F1 has the name that it's expensive, extremely expensive. It's one of the things it sets it's apart from any other motorsport, even IndyCar (any works team can run the whole field of Indycars for a season and have money left over). Renault is a same kind of pickle, with emergency fundings from the French government "how can you run F1 while on support?" etc etc. A simple side brand helps to divert attention while F1 viewers still know it's Renault Sport and the banners are still on the wall (maybe besides a A110) at the Renault dealership.

And with the growing public sentiment against other ludicrous perceived projects, like billionaires with their rockets (which as we know, wil be cheaper to run than the NASA equivalent and are actually quite sane investments), it looks like they took the right decision.

Luckily, most teams choose this route, instead of pulling out like they did with the financial crisis. That had little to do with costs (the FIA could have froze the V8's a bit sooner, the racing teams are pretty self supporting if they wished), but all with perception. A lot of money was wasted those years.

[NL_Fer]

The froze the rules after Honda decided to quit

[AeroDynamic]

The froze the rules after Honda decided to quit

They still have. They're just not handing manufacturing over to Red Bull for the engine. Pending further info, It's still assumed they aren't running R&D in F1 with RBR. IF it comes to light they are fighting a development race over the 5 years with other engine manufacturers, then yes that is the biggest 'ghost' leave I've ever heard of

[SmallSoldier]

The froze the rules after Honda decided to quit

Exactly… They could have reversed their decision given the freeze… Would have loved for them to stay in F1


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[diffuser]

The froze the rules after Honda decided to quit

Exactly… They could have reversed their decision given the freeze… Would have loved for them to stay in F1


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Not picking on you smallsoldier but that is true and not true. They had not yet confirmed the freeze but it's been talked about for along time. The expectation of PU freeze was there. I also clearly remember thinking that it didn't make sense that Honda was pulled out based on the PU expectation.

Good on them for rethinking it.

[Rodak]

The froze the rules after Honda decided to quit

Exactly… They could have reversed their decision given the freeze… Would have loved for them to stay in F1


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Not picking on you smallsoldier but that is true and not true. They had not yet confirmed the freeze but it's been talked about for along time. The expectation of PU freeze was there. I also clearly remember thinking that it didn't make sense that Honda was pulled out based on the PU expectation.

Good on them for rethinking it.

Finally, after pages and pages of blather a good comment. Indeed, Honda made a good choice with deciding to continuing building engines and I'm sure RBR is pretty happy too.....

[SmallSoldier]

The froze the rules after Honda decided to quit

Exactly… They could have reversed their decision given the freeze… Would have loved for them to stay in F1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not picking on you smallsoldier but that is true and not true. They had not yet confirmed the freeze but it's been talked about for along time. The expectation of PU freeze was there. I also clearly remember thinking that it didn't make sense that Honda was pulled out based on the PU expectation.

Good on them for rethinking it.

I agree with you

[Tizz]

Exactly… They could have reversed their decision given the freeze… Would have loved for them to stay in F1


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Not picking on you smallsoldier but that is true and not true. They had not yet confirmed the freeze but it's been talked about for along time. The expectation of PU freeze was there. I also clearly remember thinking that it didn't make sense that Honda was pulled out based on the PU expectation.

Good on them for rethinking it.

I agree with you

I think with the budget cap in place, most will welcome the freeze anyway even if things went a little funny.