2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[JPower]

McLaren were able to beat Renault in 2019 and 2020 by being their customers. With the same budget and resources, the advantage of the factory team is not as great as it seems.

We’re not talking about an fairly inept Renault team(at least in hybrid era) though. The manufacturer in this case is the most dominant in F1 history with far greater resources than McLaren(at the moment).

Like I said, we’ll see…

Except the resource restrictions mean that McLaren actually has more use of their resources than Mercedes does of theirs. More windtunnel time and more CFD and capped budgets. Plus McLaren will benefit from any advances on the PU side that Merc make. I think it's a lot closer than you think in this regard.

You can have all the wind tunnel and CFD time you want but if your simulation tools aren't as sophisticated or efficient, then it doesn't really matter much. Mercedes still has the engineering talent, internal knowledge, simulation tools, etc that come with finishing 1st 8 years in a row and having a $400+ million budget for a decade.

So yes, I do think its fairly far apart at the moment. In 2-3 years I expect that not to be the case especially if McLaren can sign a deal to develop its own PU.

[AtlasZX]

You can have all the wind tunnel and CFD time you want but if your simulation tools aren't as sophisticated or efficient, then it doesn't really matter much. Mercedes still has the engineering talent, internal knowledge, simulation tools, etc that come with finishing 1st 8 years in a row and having a $400+ million budget for a decade.

So yes, I do think its fairly far apart at the moment. In 2-3 years I expect that not to be the case especially if McLaren can sign a deal to develop its own PU.

Back in 2014, the Williams FW36 was the second fastest car on average, 0.8% slower than the W05, and since the FW36 lacked a lot of downforce compared to the Mercedes, we can assume the P.U. wasn't a problem at all compared to Mercedes itself.
And even if a under-funded team such as Williams could compete with the Mercedes on pure speed, McLaren can have a shot.
The only case scenario where I agree, is for the Ferrari Powered teams, the last time a SF-powered team scored a podium was in 2012.

[zxof]

You can have all the wind tunnel and CFD time you want but if your simulation tools aren't as sophisticated or efficient, then it doesn't really matter much. Mercedes still has the engineering talent, internal knowledge, simulation tools, etc that come with finishing 1st 8 years in a row and having a $400+ million budget for a decade.

So yes, I do think its fairly far apart at the moment. In 2-3 years I expect that not to be the case especially if McLaren can sign a deal to develop its own PU.

Back in 2014, the Williams FW36 was the second fastest car on average, 0.8% slower than the W05, and since the FW36 lacked a lot of downforce compared to the Mercedes, we can assume the P.U. wasn't a problem at all compared to Mercedes itself.
And even if a under-funded team such as Williams could compete with the Mercedes on pure speed, McLaren can have a shot.
The only case scenario where I agree, is for the Ferrari Powered teams, the last time a SF-powered team scored a podium was in 2012.

In my opinion Williams were very competitive in 2014 mainly because of 2 factors: Mercedes engines were so far ahead and many teams screwed up their cars (McLaren, Ferrari).

[geogate]

I think the most important fact is that McLaren did their best time on day 1. It means they sandbagged on Day 2 and 3.

I think they sandbagged even more on day 2 and 3. It's a really fast car with everything turned down

[JPower]

You can have all the wind tunnel and CFD time you want but if your simulation tools aren't as sophisticated or efficient, then it doesn't really matter much. Mercedes still has the engineering talent, internal knowledge, simulation tools, etc that come with finishing 1st 8 years in a row and having a $400+ million budget for a decade.

So yes, I do think its fairly far apart at the moment. In 2-3 years I expect that not to be the case especially if McLaren can sign a deal to develop its own PU.

Back in 2014, the Williams FW36 was the second fastest car on average, 0.8% slower than the W05, and since the FW36 lacked a lot of downforce compared to the Mercedes, we can assume the P.U. wasn't a problem at all compared to Mercedes itself.
And even if a under-funded team such as Williams could compete with the Mercedes on pure speed, McLaren can have a shot.
The only case scenario where I agree, is for the Ferrari Powered teams, the last time a SF-powered team scored a podium was in 2012.

Really grasping at straws now. Mercedes wasn’t running full power for most of that year. Nor did they have the type of built in competitive advantage they have now.

[frosty125]

You can have all the wind tunnel and CFD time you want but if your simulation tools aren't as sophisticated or efficient, then it doesn't really matter much. Mercedes still has the engineering talent, internal knowledge, simulation tools, etc that come with finishing 1st 8 years in a row and having a $400+ million budget for a decade.

So yes, I do think its fairly far apart at the moment. In 2-3 years I expect that not to be the case especially if McLaren can sign a deal to develop its own PU.

Back in 2014, the Williams FW36 was the second fastest car on average, 0.8% slower than the W05, and since the FW36 lacked a lot of downforce compared to the Mercedes, we can assume the P.U. wasn't a problem at all compared to Mercedes itself.
And even if a under-funded team such as Williams could compete with the Mercedes on pure speed, McLaren can have a shot.
The only case scenario where I agree, is for the Ferrari Powered teams, the last time a SF-powered team scored a podium was in 2012.

Really grasping at straws now. Mercedes wasn’t running full power for most of that year. Nor did they have the type of built in competitive advantage they have now.

Totally agree that Mercedes should have an inbuilt advantage but it doesn't mean they will capitalise on it.

Now that PU development is fairly frozen I don't agree that you need to be a works team to compete at the front.

[SmallSoldier]

The fact that been a customer team means that you can never beat the works team is a myth in today’s F1… If McLaren doesn’t get close to fight Mercedes it won’t have anything to do with the fact that it is a customer team, they simply didn’t build an strong enough car.

It is true that Mercedes has better (more up to date) tools than McLaren at the moment, but I don’t think that it creates the gap that seems to be implied in this conversation (a gap big enough that it will never catch up).

[JPower]

The fact that been a customer team means that you can never beat the works team is a myth in today’s F1… If McLaren doesn’t get close to fight Mercedes it won’t have anything to do with the fact that it is a customer team, they simply didn’t build an strong enough car.

It is true that Mercedes has better (more up to date) tools than McLaren at the moment, but I don’t think that it creates the gap that seems to be implied in this conversation (a gap big enough that it will never catch up).

I never implied that, I said they should be able to catch up in 2-3 years which also the exact timeline Zak Brown gave as well.

[Big Tea]

The fact that been a customer team means that you can never beat the works team is a myth in today’s F1… If McLaren doesn’t get close to fight Mercedes it won’t have anything to do with the fact that it is a customer team, they simply didn’t build an strong enough car.

It is true that Mercedes has better (more up to date) tools than McLaren at the moment, but I don’t think that it creates the gap that seems to be implied in this conversation (a gap big enough that it will never catch up).

More up to date usually means gather more information in the same time. Or the same information in a shorter time.

[continuum16]

While it is unlikely a customer team can beat the works team, it is definitely not impossible. I think a big component over the next 2-3 years is the engine freeze as well. If the PU is redesigned (or at least changed in some capacity) each year, obviously the works team will have an advantage because the changes will always be done to maximize their benefit.

If the PU is the same year on year (like it will be for the next 4 seasons) then I would expect the works team advantage to gradually diminish each year.

[SmallSoldier]

The fact that been a customer team means that you can never beat the works team is a myth in today’s F1… If McLaren doesn’t get close to fight Mercedes it won’t have anything to do with the fact that it is a customer team, they simply didn’t build an strong enough car.

It is true that Mercedes has better (more up to date) tools than McLaren at the moment, but I don’t think that it creates the gap that seems to be implied in this conversation (a gap big enough that it will never catch up).

I never implied that, I said they should be able to catch up in 2-3 years which also the exact timeline Zak Brown gave as well.

You said that you think that they are “fairly far apart at the moment”, I don’t think that the gap is fairly far apart… Just divergent opinions.

Mercedes operated with a budget that was more than twice that of McLaren, so it isn’t surprising that they were ahead in the past… Now with equal conditions in terms of budget, that gap gets reduced dramatically.

I do agree that Mercedes potentially (because I don’t know the details) has more up to date equipment in regards to manufacturing equipment, simulator and wind tunnel which could be newer than McLaren’s, how much of an impact those have in terms of performance is something that I honestly don’t know, but I don’t think they create the gap that we have seeing between the teams in the past.

You also underestimate the impact that additional Wind Tunnel and CFD time can have in terms of performance, according to Toto Wolff the advantage of additional WT time could mean a couple of tenths of on track performance.

As far as McLaren’s tools gap to the likes of Mercedes, RBR and Ferrari, they are now only behind in the simulator (which is really a tuning / setup tool, not a design one) and the Wind Tunnel… I read last year that from a computational power and manufacturing tools, they are up to date now (which were the “cheaper” investments).

[SmallSoldier]

The fact that been a customer team means that you can never beat the works team is a myth in today’s F1… If McLaren doesn’t get close to fight Mercedes it won’t have anything to do with the fact that it is a customer team, they simply didn’t build an strong enough car.

It is true that Mercedes has better (more up to date) tools than McLaren at the moment, but I don’t think that it creates the gap that seems to be implied in this conversation (a gap big enough that it will never catch up).

More up to date usually means gather more information in the same time. Or the same information in a shorter time.

Not disagreeing and that definitely applies to the Wind Tunnel, nevertheless CFD isn’t measure in terms of hours, is measured in terms of data volume (it doesn’t matter how long it takes) and it is capped, therefore the teams can’t run it 24/7.

Furthermore, while I agree that the new Wind Tunnel will speed up the process (since traveling time is taken out of the equation) and will provide a higher level of detail for analysis, the computational power of the team shouldn’t be behind Mercedes, so it isn’t really a handicap.

[JPower]

The fact that been a customer team means that you can never beat the works team is a myth in today’s F1… If McLaren doesn’t get close to fight Mercedes it won’t have anything to do with the fact that it is a customer team, they simply didn’t build an strong enough car.

It is true that Mercedes has better (more up to date) tools than McLaren at the moment, but I don’t think that it creates the gap that seems to be implied in this conversation (a gap big enough that it will never catch up).

I never implied that, I said they should be able to catch up in 2-3 years which also the exact timeline Zak Brown gave as well.

You said that you think that they are “fairly far apart at the moment”, I don’t think that the gap is fairly far apart… Just divergent opinions.

Mercedes operated with a budget that was more than twice that of McLaren, so it isn’t surprising that they were ahead in the past… Now with equal conditions in terms of budget, that gap gets reduced dramatically.

I do agree that Mercedes potentially (because I don’t know the details) has more up to date equipment in regards to manufacturing equipment, simulator and wind tunnel which could be newer than McLaren’s, how much of an impact those have in terms of performance is something that I honestly don’t know, but I don’t think they create the gap that we have seeing between the teams in the past.

You also underestimate the impact that additional Wind Tunnel and CFD time can have in terms of performance, according to Toto Wolff the advantage of additional WT time could mean a couple of tenths of on track performance.

As far as McLaren’s tools gap to the likes of Mercedes, RBR and Ferrari, they are now only behind in the simulator (which is really a tuning / setup tool, not a design one) and the Wind Tunnel… I read last year that from a computational power and manufacturing tools, they are up to date now (which were the “cheaper” investments).

The budget cap doesn't have an immediate effect. That has been the crux of the aspirations for teams like Aston, McLaren, and Alpine in their timelines to get to the front. Things don't just become equal because of one year under the budget cap. It will take a few years for those effects to come into play. Again, likely to be 2-3 years down the road.

I'd also say the CFD time might add a tenth or two for the team Wolff was specifically talking about, Ferrari. That might not be the case for a team without Ferrari's resources. Teams like Aston, Haas, Alfa, Williams will have tons of time, but that might not necessarily bring them tenths of time in the years to come.

Regardless, I think McLaren will have a good car this season. I see no reason for them not to given their rapid improvement lately. I just have a high doubt that they'll be in podium position or challenging for wins on a consistent basis like Mercedes has been in recent years or I think they will this year. Feel free to disagree as many of you will.

[SmallSoldier]

I never implied that, I said they should be able to catch up in 2-3 years which also the exact timeline Zak Brown gave as well.

You said that you think that they are “fairly far apart at the moment”, I don’t think that the gap is fairly far apart… Just divergent opinions.

Mercedes operated with a budget that was more than twice that of McLaren, so it isn’t surprising that they were ahead in the past… Now with equal conditions in terms of budget, that gap gets reduced dramatically.

I do agree that Mercedes potentially (because I don’t know the details) has more up to date equipment in regards to manufacturing equipment, simulator and wind tunnel which could be newer than McLaren’s, how much of an impact those have in terms of performance is something that I honestly don’t know, but I don’t think they create the gap that we have seeing between the teams in the past.

You also underestimate the impact that additional Wind Tunnel and CFD time can have in terms of performance, according to Toto Wolff the advantage of additional WT time could mean a couple of tenths of on track performance.

As far as McLaren’s tools gap to the likes of Mercedes, RBR and Ferrari, they are now only behind in the simulator (which is really a tuning / setup tool, not a design one) and the Wind Tunnel… I read last year that from a computational power and manufacturing tools, they are up to date now (which were the “cheaper” investments).

The budget cap doesn't have an immediate effect. That has been the crux of the aspirations for teams like Aston, McLaren, and Alpine in their timelines to get to the front. Things don't just become equal because of one year under the budget cap. It will take a few years for those effects to come into play. Again, likely to be 2-3 years down the road.

I'd also say the CFD time might add a tenth or two for the team Wolff was specifically talking about, Ferrari. That might not be the case for a team without Ferrari's resources. Teams like Aston, Haas, Alfa, Williams will have tons of time, but that might not necessarily bring them tenths of time in the years to come.

Regardless, I think McLaren will have a good car this season. I see no reason for them not to given their rapid improvement lately. I just have a high doubt that they'll be in podium position or challenging for wins on a consistent basis like Mercedes has been in recent years or I think they will this year. Feel free to disagree as many of you will.

We do have to consider that this cars have been almost fully designed under the budget cap, since it was implemented last year, so we should be seeing the effects of it for the first time (the 2021 cars were “designed” - they were actually modified 2020 cars - without a budget cap, so not surprising that the gaps were there still last year.

In regards to the article, if you read it you will see that the headline is totally misleading, Wolff is not talking about Ferrari, he is actually talking about a team that finishes 6th when he makes a reference to the additional performance that could be gained thanks to more WT / CFD.

I’m not making any claims that McLaren will be a podium contender, so far it is impossible to know where the teams will be come Bahrain Q3, all I’m arguing is that their capabilities aren’t that far apart.

[JPower]

I’m not making any claims that McLaren will be a podium contender, so far it is impossible to know where the teams will be come Bahrain Q3, all I’m arguing is that their capabilities aren’t that far apart.

I'll agree to disagree.