FIA Thread

[chrisc90]

I think your confusing yourself, or arent reading exactly what I have wrote.

I didnt mention the end period in Abu Dhabi.... I said the period at the VSC, which I specifically mentioned in my comment (at the VSC period)

Do you think Masi made the right call on not penalising Bottas for failing to adhere to the 10 car maximum gap between cars behind the safety car?

oh well you're just deflecting.

...

I dont think there is any deflection going on. My first post questioned the decision from Jeddah on lap 10/11 at red flag and the influence from Toto during the VSC period at Dubai. I havent moved from that stance/point at any time during my replies to yourself. It was you who brought in 2 separate incidents that I wasnt even discussing. That being the formation lap where there was more than 10 lengths between (brazil???) AND the final lap in Dubhai.

Let me ask again, "Do you think Masi made the right call on not penalising Bottas for failing to adhere to the 10 car maximum gap between cars behind the safety car?"

[NathanOlder]

Masi was confused when he was indecisive of removing the backmarkers when he should have legitimately and delayed the decision. That doesn't mean, there was any chance of restarting the race by leaving the backmarkers in between, Red Bull influence or not. So it's moot argument if Max would cleared the backmarkers and go on a fantasy ride of what could have happened.

The race was only a minute or 2 away from restarting with the backmarkers in the way, Its not fantasy. Its been mentioned many times that the race director has the power to leave all the backmarkers where they are if he has reason to do so, and getting a race restarting before the chequered flag is a valid reason.

Race director's mistake was that he delayed taking a decision to let back markers go, which led to what happened then. It was never an option to let them race with back markers in between for one lap, so it is a fantasy to imagine it.

Why do you keep saying it wasn't an option? Do you not understand how it can happen and was avout to happen were it not for Masi breaking the rules that stopped it happening.

[NathanOlder]

Just mentioning, although passing back markers would have been easy for Max, it would also have run down his charge and allowed Lewis to extend the time gap, so we really have no idea what would have happened. But come on guys, it has been done to death now on just about every thread.

What you have to remember is if Max was 7th in line , Lewis + 5 back markers, Max would have been at least 5 seconds behind Lewis, with 1 lap to go.

[NathanOlder]

Let me ask again, "Do you think Masi made the right call on not penalising Bottas for failing to adhere to the 10 car maximum gap between cars behind the safety car?"

Can you just clarify which safety car etc. I assume you mean when the SC was launched for Mick Schumacher in Saudi ?

[chrisc90]

Let me ask again, "Do you think Masi made the right call on not penalising Bottas for failing to adhere to the 10 car maximum gap between cars behind the safety car?"

Can you just clarify which safety car etc. I assume you mean when the SC was launched for Mick Schumacher in Saudi ?

Thats the one. Lap 10 I'm believe it was. I did reference it in the linked video at around 1mins 15seconds in on the official F1 highlights video.

[NathanOlder]

Let me ask again, "Do you think Masi made the right call on not penalising Bottas for failing to adhere to the 10 car maximum gap between cars behind the safety car?"

Can you just clarify which safety car etc. I assume you mean when the SC was launched for Mick Schumacher in Saudi ?

Thats the one. Lap 10 I'm believe it was. I did reference it in the linked video at around 1mins 15seconds in on the official F1 highlights video.

So the SC was launched, and then the Merc's decide to pit. If Bottas got to 10 lengths of Lewis, he would have got a penalty for going TOO FAST. He cant catch up to the back of Lewis. The drivers have to drive to a delta (which means no faster than a set time in each mini sector) until they catch the SC and then follow the car ahead at the SC speed. So to think Bottas should have been within 10 car lengths of Lewis is completely wrong. He can't catch Lewis at that stage.

[NathanOlder]

Race director's mistake was that he delayed taking a decision to let back markers go, which led to what happened then. It was never an option to let them race with back markers in between for one lap, so it is a fantasy to imagine it.

Why do you keep saying it wasn't an option? Do you not understand how it can happen and was avout to happen were it not for Masi breaking the rules that stopped it happening.

Rules clearly define how a SC restart should happen. So you are trying to debate a fantasy situation.

I thought the rules state that the race can be resumed 1 lap after the last backmarker had passed the SC. As that wasn't going to happen (as Masi decided to not allow the lapped cars to pass, which I believe he does have the power to do) Then the race could have been restarted with 1 lap to go, and stayed within the rules. So could you explain how the race couldnt/cant be restarted with 1 lap to go, providing Masi stuck to his decision to allow no cars to unlap.

[chrisc90]

Can you just clarify which safety car etc. I assume you mean when the SC was launched for Mick Schumacher in Saudi ?

Thats the one. Lap 10 I'm believe it was. I did reference it in the linked video at around 1mins 15seconds in on the official F1 highlights video.

So the SC was launched, and then the Merc's decide to pit. If Bottas got to 10 lengths of Lewis, he would have got a penalty for going TOO FAST. He cant catch up to the back of Lewis. The drivers have to drive to a delta (which means no faster than a set time in each mini sector) until they catch the SC and then follow the car ahead at the SC speed. So to think Bottas should have been within 10 car lengths of Lewis is completely wrong. He can't catch Lewis at that stage.

Interesting. I think that entirely depends how long the SC had been out and whether they had caught it up or not. A re-run of the race would be the only way to determine that as from the highlights its not possible.

Without knowing how the rules are written for the 10 car length gap, it makes it hard to comment, but if you were already caught up to the car infront (who hadnt caught the SC itself) then I cant see why you would be allowed to drop back out of that 10 car length gap. Of course there is probably set times they need to adhere to under the yellow flag conditions.
I mean the rules could be pretty flawed at this point. Team car A drives to the maximum speed, and team car B goes at the minimum speed (if there is one) That way car B can allow car A to get a huge gap and effectively back the pack up giving car A a huge advantage. if theres only 1 lap of SC then they never get onto the SC train and car B has sucessfully given car A a massive lead when normal racing resumes.

EDIT: Just found the rules, cars must do the minimum time set by the FIA for the track. BUT once behind the SC, they cant drop out of the 10 car length window.

So the question would be next, were they behind the SC at that moment? I guess you do have the loophole I mentioned above regarding car B slowing the rest of the pack up whilst car A travels much faster.

BUT I guess that is covered by cars not being allowed to drive unnecessarily slowly - which Bottas was doing in order to build a gap for the double stack

[NathanOlder]

Thats the one. Lap 10 I'm believe it was. I did reference it in the linked video at around 1mins 15seconds in on the official F1 highlights video.

So the SC was launched, and then the Merc's decide to pit. If Bottas got to 10 lengths of Lewis, he would have got a penalty for going TOO FAST. He cant catch up to the back of Lewis. The drivers have to drive to a delta (which means no faster than a set time in each mini sector) until they catch the SC and then follow the car ahead at the SC speed. So to think Bottas should have been within 10 car lengths of Lewis is completely wrong. He can't catch Lewis at that stage.

Interesting. I think that entirely depends how long the SC had been out and whether they had caught it up or not. A re-run of the race would be the only way to determine that as from the highlights its not possible.

Without knowing how the rules are written for the 10 car length gap, it makes it hard to comment, but if you were already caught up to the car infront (who hadnt caught the SC itself) then I cant see why you would be allowed to drop back out of that 10 car length gap. Of course there is probably set times they need to adhere to under the yellow flag conditions.
I mean the rules could be pretty flawed at this point. Team car A drives to the maximum speed, and team car B goes at the minimum speed (if there is one) That way car B can allow car A to get a huge gap and effectively back the pack up giving car A a huge advantage. if theres only 1 lap of SC then they never get onto the SC train and car B has sucessfully given car A a massive lead when normal racing resumes.

It was definitely the lap the SC was launched, theres no need to go back and look. You only pit on the current lap, otherwise you will catch the SC and then if you pit, you will end up near the back. It would have been the lap the SC was launched, so the SC was sitting just after the pit exit. The Mercs would have pit at the end of their current lap. Max was close to Bottas when the SC was launched, so he was all over him when Bottas decided to slow where as Lewis would have been on the limit of what he would be allowed. There is no 10 car rule on this lap, the drivers just have to stick to a delta, like a VSC situation. Bottas was indeed slower than Lewis, but I assume he wasnt too slow , otherwise he would have been investigated.

[NathanOlder]

Rules clearly define how a SC restart should happen. So you are trying to debate a fantasy situation.

I thought the rules state that the race can be resumed 1 lap after the last backmarker had passed the SC. As that wasn't going to happen (as Masi decided to not allow the lapped cars to pass, which I believe he does have the power to do) Then the race could have been restarted with 1 lap to go, and stayed within the rules. So could you explain how the race couldnt/cant be restarted with 1 lap to go, providing Masi stuck to his decision to allow no cars to unlap.

The very reason why everyone was unhappy was the fact that not all the lapped cars were allowed to unlap. If not allowing part of the unlapped cars is unfair, how is not allowing all the lapped cars to unlap is fair? The SC restart rules require all the unlapped cars to move out. What you are imaginging a scenario that is not within the rules.

Your not grasping this. Are you saying that not allowing any car at all to unlap , is not within the rules ? I have heard Brundle say a few times that the Race Director is within his right to allow no cars to unlap to get the race restarted.

[chrisc90]

So the SC was launched, and then the Merc's decide to pit. If Bottas got to 10 lengths of Lewis, he would have got a penalty for going TOO FAST. He cant catch up to the back of Lewis. The drivers have to drive to a delta (which means no faster than a set time in each mini sector) until they catch the SC and then follow the car ahead at the SC speed. So to think Bottas should have been within 10 car lengths of Lewis is completely wrong. He can't catch Lewis at that stage.

Interesting. I think that entirely depends how long the SC had been out and whether they had caught it up or not. A re-run of the race would be the only way to determine that as from the highlights its not possible.

Without knowing how the rules are written for the 10 car length gap, it makes it hard to comment, but if you were already caught up to the car infront (who hadnt caught the SC itself) then I cant see why you would be allowed to drop back out of that 10 car length gap. Of course there is probably set times they need to adhere to under the yellow flag conditions.
I mean the rules could be pretty flawed at this point. Team car A drives to the maximum speed, and team car B goes at the minimum speed (if there is one) That way car B can allow car A to get a huge gap and effectively back the pack up giving car A a huge advantage. if theres only 1 lap of SC then they never get onto the SC train and car B has sucessfully given car A a massive lead when normal racing resumes.

It was definitely the lap the SC was launched, theres no need to go back and look. You only pit on the current lap, otherwise you will catch the SC and then if you pit, you will end up near the back. It would have been the lap the SC was launched, so the SC was sitting just after the pit exit. The Mercs would have pit at the end of their current lap. Max was close to Bottas when the SC was launched, so he was all over him when Bottas decided to slow where as Lewis would have been on the limit of what he would be allowed. There is no 10 car rule on this lap, the drivers just have to stick to a delta, like a VSC situation. Bottas was indeed slower than Lewis, but I assume he wasnt too slow , otherwise he would have been investigated.

I guess you could exploit a loophole there then. However that only works IF the SC time is SLOWER than the minimum time they need to complete a lap. Its quite surprising they can allow a car to drop more than 10 car lengths behind the car infront (regardless of if its behind/caught the safety car or not), providing they hit the minimum time set for the lap/between SC points.

[NathanOlder]

Interesting. I think that entirely depends how long the SC had been out and whether they had caught it up or not. A re-run of the race would be the only way to determine that as from the highlights its not possible.

Without knowing how the rules are written for the 10 car length gap, it makes it hard to comment, but if you were already caught up to the car infront (who hadnt caught the SC itself) then I cant see why you would be allowed to drop back out of that 10 car length gap. Of course there is probably set times they need to adhere to under the yellow flag conditions.
I mean the rules could be pretty flawed at this point. Team car A drives to the maximum speed, and team car B goes at the minimum speed (if there is one) That way car B can allow car A to get a huge gap and effectively back the pack up giving car A a huge advantage. if theres only 1 lap of SC then they never get onto the SC train and car B has sucessfully given car A a massive lead when normal racing resumes.

It was definitely the lap the SC was launched, theres no need to go back and look. You only pit on the current lap, otherwise you will catch the SC and then if you pit, you will end up near the back. It would have been the lap the SC was launched, so the SC was sitting just after the pit exit. The Mercs would have pit at the end of their current lap. Max was close to Bottas when the SC was launched, so he was all over him when Bottas decided to slow where as Lewis would have been on the limit of what he would be allowed. There is no 10 car rule on this lap, the drivers just have to stick to a delta, like a VSC situation. Bottas was indeed slower than Lewis, but I assume he wasnt too slow , otherwise he would have been investigated.

I guess you could exploit a loophole there then. However that only works IF the SC time is SLOWER than the minimum time they need to complete a lap. Its quite surprising they can allow a car to drop more than 10 car lengths behind the car infront (regardless of if its behind/caught the safety car or not), providing they hit the minimum time set for the lap/between SC points.

Its a very rare that slowing down will benefit a car/team. And its also only able to happen if its on the very lap the SC is launched. So chances are you have no more than 2 sectors to do so. Once the SC is launched you will have to drop your speed/pace by 40% so instead of doing a sector in 30 seconds, you now have to be no faster than 42 seconds. But there is probably a minimum time for example 50% slower. SO now you can do that sector in 45 seconds. If Bottas did S2 and S3 at the slowest time, and S2 & S3 are normally 30 seconds, he can go through there at 1min 30sec. Hamilton ahead could go through as fast as he's allowed, so he goes through in 1min 24sec. SO 6 seconds have now opened up and this added to the gap he already had to Lewis is more than enough for a double stack. Max being right behind Bottas can't do anything about it apart from complain which is what everyone would do. The FIA then look at it, and see Bottas was faster than the maximum time in those sectors and doesnt need investigating.

[Big Tea]

Just mentioning, although passing back markers would have been easy for Max, it would also have run down his charge and allowed Lewis to extend the time gap, so we really have no idea what would have happened. But come on guys, it has been done to death now on just about every thread.

What you have to remember is if Max was 7th in line , Lewis + 5 back markers, Max would have been at least 5 seconds behind Lewis, with 1 lap to go.

And may well have depleted his energy store passing these backmarkers as quickly as he could, I agree. But any number of things could have happened, and I think they have all been brought up many times in seemingly every thread.
Nothing any one says is going to make any difference, is it not time to let it die?

Edit, yes I know I am doing it too

[dans79]

Let me ask again, "Do you think Masi made the right call on not penalising Bottas for failing to adhere to the 10 car maximum gap between cars behind the safety car?"

As Masi told redbull, and as others have already said several times. Yes Masi was correct not to penalize Bottas, because he violated no rules.

[Airshifter]

Rather than turn this into an extension of the locked Abu Dhabi race thread and previous feelings, wouldn't it be nice if people actually discussed the changes being made by the FIA? The speculation and arguments threads are out of hand.


I'm still a bit perplexed about having two race directors rotating myself. Find a single one and if needed rotate the assistants as needed IMHO. I'll have to wait to see the full details of the SC and restart changes, but if they can get things moving quicker while still safe and have a set standard procedure I'll roll with it I suspect.

Track limits is really something I think needs to be a black and white thing. It seems allowing exceptions track to track just creates confusion and more room for error. They wouldn't be over the lines if it didn't provide some lasting benefit if you ask me. I can't see why they have avoided this simple fix for years. With potentially more access to quick video review, it should be easy.