2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[AeroDynamic]

Fu** E10 fuel, honestly. The pump issues are definitely related. Very similar to what happens with plastic motorcycle fuel tanks in countries like the UK where low-grade E10 fuel is the most common. They should have either gone for a fully ethanol-based fuel as in Indycar, or left it as it was. E10 is rubbish.

so Honda and ExxonMobil have not worked this out very well on the face of it. We have to wait for more information. Maybe what Marko said pre season about E10 fuel issues wasn't bulls--t

You haven't been reading the posts about the fuel pump. It's a standardised part made by another company for every team. That is what is failing. Nothing that RB/Honda are doing. They are all using E10 fuel

All teams are using E10 fuel and the standardised parts as you say. But all teams use their own E10 fuel. So why only the Honda / RBR cars? everyone else finished without those issues despite using the standardised part

[DChemTech]

so Honda and ExxonMobil have not worked this out very well on the face of it. We have to wait for more information. Maybe what Marko said pre season about E10 fuel issues wasn't bulls--t

You haven't been reading the posts about the fuel pump. It's a standardised part made by another company for every team. That is what is failing. Nothing that RB/Honda are doing. They are all using E10 fuel

All teams are using E10 fuel and the standardised parts as you say. But all teams use their own E10 fuel. So why only the Honda / RBR cars? everyone else finished without those issues despite using the standardised part

That's the big question mark now. Perhaps they tried pushing harder in the end and that pushes it over an edge. Further reports may tell.

[TNTHead]

E10 in road cars is definitely giving problems. In my car the fuel pump broke down probably because of the hygroscopic nature of E10 and not using petrol that much because of LPG. But thats most probably another cause than what happened here.

[NicoS]

E10 in road cars is definitely giving problems. In my car the fuel pump broke down probably because of the hygroscopic nature of E10 and not using petrol that much because of LPG. But thats most probably another cause than what happened here.

Yes, E10 is very shite. oxidizes to acetic acid. can provide many long term problems.

[chrisc90]

I wonder how F1 are going to address this. It must be a known problem/concern, due to the FIA giving teams additional time to inspect inside the fuel tank. More carbon neutral/self sustained rubbish IMHO.

[TNTHead]

E10 in road cars is definitely giving problems. In my car the fuel pump broke down probably because of the hygroscopic nature of E10 and not using petrol that much because of LPG. But thats most probably another cause than what happened here.

Yes, E10 is very shite. oxidizes to acetic acid. can provide many long term problems.

Yeah, therefore in an LPG car one should use E5 only. I doubt that during a race the hygroscopic nature is the issue, this should only occur after several months.
Dont know what about the acid forming over time. Could that be during a race?

[SmallSoldier]

Standardised part across the grid. Unless fuel tank design leave the pump a big higher than others...or teams were running more fuel in order to cool the pump. But from what I read on that link above, the E10 is cracking the resin at the bottom where the electronics are and killing them.

happened something similar to a friend of mine with UK E10 fuel in his carburetor car, the E10 broke some plastic or something in the fuel pump, idk if relevant.

Our pump fuel E10 eats away at the plastic and rubber seals inside.

It’s amazing to me that the pumps fail because of E10… I’ve been running E85 on my car for ages and I haven’t had a fuel pump issue (granted, had to change to an E85 capable pump), but if I can buy one for my race car, keep the fuel in for weeks at a time without issues, how is it that F1 teams are suffering from it?

[NicoS]

E10 in road cars is definitely giving problems. In my car the fuel pump broke down probably because of the hygroscopic nature of E10 and not using petrol that much because of LPG. But thats most probably another cause than what happened here.

Yes, E10 is very shite. oxidizes to acetic acid. can provide many long term problems.

Yeah, therefore in an LPG car one should use E5 only. I doubt that during a race the hygroscopic nature is the issue, this should only occur after several months.
Dont know what about the acid forming over time. Could that be during a race?

The pump does remain in contact with fuel for prolonged periods, (fuel bag can newer get drained 100%)
so maybe sealing epoxy degrades (incorrect chemical spec for E10)?

[zibby43]

There are reports in the paddock that the RBR cars may have run out of fuel, as opposed to pump problems.

Of course, this journo could be misunderstanding the precise nature of the issue.

[ScrewCaptain27]

Pretty sure other teams had issues in testing as well.

[chrisc90]

happened something similar to a friend of mine with UK E10 fuel in his carburetor car, the E10 broke some plastic or something in the fuel pump, idk if relevant.

Our pump fuel E10 eats away at the plastic and rubber seals inside.

It’s amazing to me that the pumps fail because of E10… I’ve been running E85 on my car for ages and I haven’t had a fuel pump issue (granted, had to change to an E85 capable pump), but if I can buy one for my race car, keep the fuel in for weeks at a time without issues, how is it that F1 teams are suffering from it?

Good question. I can only imagine that a E85 pump has different build up materials to it that your more conventional pumps designed for E5. I also think injectors need to be compatible with E85 - something which might not have been 'standard' on your race car. I know from my VAG 1.8T engines that standard injectors wont run E85, but the upgrade ones I have in mine Bosch 1000cc will run E85 - not that I run that fuel.

It'll be a interesting watch to see how the fuel pump concerns pan out in the coming races, or whether revised pumps will be used if the investigation from RBR finds there was problems with the pump. I believe it was also noted in testing it could be a high concern.

[Dee]

There are reports in the paddock that the RBR cars may have run out of fuel, as opposed to pump problems.

Of course, this journo could be misunderstanding the precise nature of the issue.

https://twitter.com/jucerasoli/status/1 ... 93314?s=21

They were, please delete

[vorticism]

Not a good start for Red Bull Powertrains.

Making engines is no small feat. There's a reason Mercedes started off the hybrid era on the right foot and carried it forward for several years. They're an engineering powerhouse with a long history of experience in combustion, turbocharging, DI, CI, and durability R&D. Compared to Renault and Ferrari at least.

If this were still a non-hybrid or maybe NA formula, I might be more optimistic about RBPT becoming something like a Cosworth, but the current engine formula is too much of a mishmash of engineering domains to make the process any easier than it otherwise could have been.

[AR3-GP]

There are reports in the paddock that the RBR cars may have run out of fuel, as opposed to pump problems.

Of course, this journo could be misunderstanding the precise nature of the issue.

https://twitter.com/jucerasoli/status/1 ... 93314?s=21

We had several safety car laps. Running out of fuel is extremely unlikely.

[SmallSoldier]

Our pump fuel E10 eats away at the plastic and rubber seals inside.

It’s amazing to me that the pumps fail because of E10… I’ve been running E85 on my car for ages and I haven’t had a fuel pump issue (granted, had to change to an E85 capable pump), but if I can buy one for my race car, keep the fuel in for weeks at a time without issues, how is it that F1 teams are suffering from it?

Good question. I can only imagine that a E85 pump has different build up materials to it that your more conventional pumps designed for E5. I also think injectors need to be compatible with E85 - something which might not have been 'standard' on your race car. I know from my VAG 1.8T engines that standard injectors wont run E85, but the upgrade ones I have in mine Bosch 1000cc will run E85 - not that I run that fuel.

It'll be a interesting watch to see how the fuel pump concerns pan out in the coming races, or whether revised pumps will be used if the investigation from RBR finds there was problems with the pump. I believe it was also noted in testing it could be a high concern.

Yes, I did had different injectors (ID 1300), both for the E85 itself, as well as the additional fuel flow requirements… I’m just surprised that they would fail because of 10% content of ethanol… Hope is an issue resolved quickly