McLaren MCL36

[CjC]

Good video by BSport examining McLaren's aero issues. One thing I've learned from him is that splashing the car with tons of flowviz usually points to correlation issues. When I saw Lando's car in FP3 that raised some alarm bells.

That’s quite a damning report for the Mclaren. They either need a fancy Red Bull inspired barge-board/ side of the floor or a Ferrari inspired wide side-pod to manage wake and they also a need a new entrance to the floor. Basically an overhaul of the aerodynamics

[aran.vtec]

With the devolvement curve on these new cars going to be so quick does Mclaren even have a chance to catch up?

A car that is lacking grip and downforce and at the same time being one of the slowest in a straight line, adding efficient downforce is going to be a massive task on a car that they already designed to the best of their abilities.

[CjC]

With the devolvement curve on these new cars going to be so quick does Mclaren even have a chance to catch up?

A car that is lacking grip and downforce and at the same time being one of the slowest in a straight line, adding efficient downforce is going to be a massive task on a car that they already designed to the best of their abilities.

I’d say to the best of their current understanding.
Now they have seen the other cars, mainly the Ferrari and Red Bull they can take inspiration from them. I’d lean more towards the Red Bull as they share similar suspension concepts.
One good thing is that this is the formula for the foreseeable future so development and understanding can be carried on for seasons to come. It’ll just take time. (Sigh)

[maxpp]

This is not a matter of having an undercut or not having an undercut. You can put an undercut on that car and it will probably work the same, if not worse. I understand, you look at the other cars, you look at McLaren and the first difference you see is the lack of undercut. But Mercedes doesn't even have sidepods yet they qualified a full second ahead. F*cking Aston Martin has the biggest undercut of them all and they are tied for the slowest car on the grid ...

Eye aero is bullsh*t and pointless. You can't know how good a concept performs just by looking at it. So no, their issues aren't magically going to disappear just by opening up a path below their sidepods.

Aston martin are losing 0.75 seconds from porpoising solutions, and are working on revamping their car. And btw using your eyes to analyze a cars aero is all we can do, do you have their wind tunnel and CFD data? NO. You can figure out the core concept of a car by seeing it just with your eyes, the details are different.

You “can” use your eyes to analyze aero… You most probably won’t be right, unless you are an experience aerodynamicist… Most of us fans, do not have the knowledge, experience and understanding to visually determine why a concept would or wouldn’t work… The example this season with Ferrari is a classic, where everyone underestimate them by saying that it was bulky and therefore draggy, while Mercedes was the slimmest and therefore with very low drag… It appears that is the complete opposite.

It’s too early to say if the MCL36 concept is bad, is it just a matter of setup? Is it possible that because of how constrained they have to be for parts they didn’t had the right combination of Rear Wing / Front Wing that would suit Bahrain? Is the size of the Tunnel Inlets the problem? Is it the sidepods? Is it the new suspension layout?… We just don’t know at this point and without knowing what or where is the deficit, we can’t bluntly say that is “the concept”.

It is clear that something isn’t working as expected and it seems that even the team is trying to find those answers… Unluckily, we can only wait and see what they come up with, but I don’t think it will be soon.

Very nice consistency in your opinion, at first it was eye aero is pointless and now it is only when done by experts does it work. Welcome to the normal world, all of us who are interested head over to channels like kyle engineers or B sport to see what their opinions are and thats how eye aero for us fan works, we learn from them and then apply it ourselves. And yes it IS the "concept" that is wrong, their taking the path that every other team chose not to take, look at their underbody, look at their sidepods, do you see any consistency with the rest of the grid? no. So when it doesnt work its obvious they went the wrong direction. This is my opinion so feel free to call me out on it, I am studying mechanical engineering as of now and am trying to get to f1, so I visit these forums and seeing such charged discussions turns me off totally. I think they just cant divert the front wheel wake far enough so they are having problems, which teams have limited this issue? Ferrari and red bull, what do they have? wide sidepods. Which teams are struggling right now? mercedes, mclaren,aston,williams. 3/4 of these have narrow sidepods and aston is already working on revamping their car by Miami I think.

[Emag]

The problem with that train of thought is that Mercedes qualified a lot higher than McLaren with no sidepods at all. How are they managing the tire wake?

The difference between Merc and McLaren is significant enough to not discredit the concept entirely, because obviosuly, there's a lot of potential on the slimmer sidepods as well, as proven by another team sharing the same power unit.

And keep in mind, Mercedes ran a lot higher than RB and Ferrari in Bahrain to mitigate porpoising. There's more pace available in the Mercedes.

[BrunoH]

still dont understand were the Mclaren problem is...just lost! i wold hate to be a Mclaren Engineer now

[JPower]

The problem with that train of thought is that Mercedes qualified a lot higher than McLaren with no sidepods at all. How are they managing the tire wake?

The difference between Merc and McLaren is significant enough to not discredit the concept entirely, because obviosuly, there's a lot of potential on the slimmer sidepods as well, as proven by another team sharing the same power unit.

And keep in mind, Mercedes ran a lot higher than RB and Ferrari in Bahrain to mitigate porpoising. There's more pace available in the Mercedes.

Did you watch the video I posted? It looks like Mercedes has some pretty advanced trickery going on near the front of the sidepod.

The concepts might look similar but I doubt that they manage air anywhere near the same.

[Emag]

The problem with that train of thought is that Mercedes qualified a lot higher than McLaren with no sidepods at all. How are they managing the tire wake?

The difference between Merc and McLaren is significant enough to not discredit the concept entirely, because obviosuly, there's a lot of potential on the slimmer sidepods as well, as proven by another team sharing the same power unit.

And keep in mind, Mercedes ran a lot higher than RB and Ferrari in Bahrain to mitigate porpoising. There's more pace available in the Mercedes.

Did you watch the video I posted? It looks like Mercedes has some pretty advanced trickery going on near the front of the sidepod.

The concepts might look similar but I doubt that they manage air anywhere near the same.

I haven't seen much of Mercedes in detail, but I would assume there has to be something Mercedes is doing right compared to their customers considering their pace advantage.

Nevertheless, my point was strictly for the slimmer sidepods. I have seen a lot of people here assume (correctly perhaps) that McLaren's problems are heavily related on their sidepod shape not being similar to Ferrari or RedBull.

And I disagree on that premise based on the fact Mercedes is doing much better with slim (practicaly non-existing) sidepods.

If there was that huge of a benefit to having fatter sidepods, I am certain Mercedes would have concidered the approach before deciding to completely get rid of theirs.

[SmallSoldier]

Aston martin are losing 0.75 seconds from porpoising solutions, and are working on revamping their car. And btw using your eyes to analyze a cars aero is all we can do, do you have their wind tunnel and CFD data? NO. You can figure out the core concept of a car by seeing it just with your eyes, the details are different.

You “can” use your eyes to analyze aero… You most probably won’t be right, unless you are an experience aerodynamicist… Most of us fans, do not have the knowledge, experience and understanding to visually determine why a concept would or wouldn’t work… The example this season with Ferrari is a classic, where everyone underestimate them by saying that it was bulky and therefore draggy, while Mercedes was the slimmest and therefore with very low drag… It appears that is the complete opposite.

It’s too early to say if the MCL36 concept is bad, is it just a matter of setup? Is it possible that because of how constrained they have to be for parts they didn’t had the right combination of Rear Wing / Front Wing that would suit Bahrain? Is the size of the Tunnel Inlets the problem? Is it the sidepods? Is it the new suspension layout?… We just don’t know at this point and without knowing what or where is the deficit, we can’t bluntly say that is “the concept”.

It is clear that something isn’t working as expected and it seems that even the team is trying to find those answers… Unluckily, we can only wait and see what they come up with, but I don’t think it will be soon.

Very nice consistency in your opinion, at first it was eye aero is pointless and now it is only when done by experts does it work. Welcome to the normal world, all of us who are interested head over to channels like kyle engineers or B sport to see what their opinions are and thats how eye aero for us fan works, we learn from them and then apply it ourselves. And yes it IS the "concept" that is wrong, their taking the path that every other team chose not to take, look at their underbody, look at their sidepods, do you see any consistency with the rest of the grid? no. So when it doesnt work its obvious they went the wrong direction. This is my opinion so feel free to call me out on it, I am studying mechanical engineering as of now and am trying to get to f1, so I visit these forums and seeing such charged discussions turns me off totally. I think they just cant divert the front wheel wake far enough so they are having problems, which teams have limited this issue? Ferrari and red bull, what do they have? wide sidepods. Which teams are struggling right now? mercedes, mclaren,aston,williams. 3/4 of these have narrow sidepods and aston is already working on revamping their car by Miami I think.

I don’t think there is lack of consistency in my opinion… CFD eyes from regular fans (like you, me and 99.99% of forum members / fans out there) don’t work… An aerodynamicist that has worked on F1 may have a better idea of what is going on and even they without doing actual CFD can get it wrong (since you watch Kyle, B-Sport, etc… You should have noted their disclosures about not having done the actual CFD work and that they are “guessing” what is happening in some parts of the car… As a matter of fact, McLaren concept been “wrong” wasn’t something that they came up on their initial analysis… So I will stick with my opinion that CFD eyes don’t work, you can get a general idea of what certain parts of the car do and how they do it, but from there to determine if a concept works or not based on visually looking at the car is flawed.

Now, if you are going to argue that because the car is not performing then the concept is wrong, it has nothing to do with CFD eyes, you are correlating a result with the concept… You have 4 very different concepts between McLaren, Aston Martin, Mercedes and Williams and based on Bahrain, none of them work (at least not as well as Ferrari and Red Bull in Mercedes case), very different treatments of the front wake on all 4 of them and no one with CFD eyes could have called it before the first race.

I won’t argue that there is lack of performance, why is that happening is something that none of us know at this point (the team with millions of dollars worth of staff comprised of experienced Engineers and Aerodynamicists are currently trying to figure that out, you really think that your CFD eyes know more than they do? You might and F1 might be the right place for you, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

I also doubt that McLaren simply forgot to take a look at the impact of the front tire wake (after every effort in F1 for the past several decades to manage it).

It’s your opinion and I respect it, I just don’t think that anyone can make a categorical statement of what is wrong with the car without having the data and information to do so, therefore those opinions / statements will be challenged.

[101FlyingDutchman]

If Landos comments are correct wrt just lacking downforce then I’m a bit scared. Main reason being is that there is only so much you can do with the upper body. The main downforce component on the car is the under body. They’ve chosen a different approach to the tunnels then other teams. I sincerely hope there is an ability to rapidly improve the car without changing the overall philosophy otherwise we could be even further from home. My hope is that Barcelona test wasn’t just a “fluke” and there is genuine prospect to “bolt on” and that this isn’t a blind alley that requires a drastic rework (which would take ages)

[BassVirolla]

If Landos comments are correct wrt just lacking downforce then I’m a bit scared. Main reason being is that there is only so much you can do with the upper body. The main downforce component on the car is the under body. They’ve chosen a different approach to the tunnels then other teams. I sincerely hope there is an ability to rapidly improve the car without changing the overall philosophy otherwise we could be even further from home. My hope is that Barcelona test wasn’t just a “fluke” and there is genuine prospect to “bolt on” and that this isn’t a blind alley that requires a drastic rework (which would take ages)

From what I can see from some pics in the forum, I think that the McLaren gets air over the tea tray, and not under it (aiming to do some outwash in place of feeding the underfloor), and directing this air outboard of the front of the sidepods.

Keeping in mind that the downforce correlates to the mass flow under the floor, these comments of just lacking downforce make sense.

If my thinkings are right (which I doubt ) it's still to be seen if the front of the sidepods, the tea tray and the tunnel entrances are going to be easily reworked or if this is going to be an unavoidable flaw.

[DiogoBrand]

Interesting that a few days ago McLaren's sidepods were too wide. Now they're not wide enough.

[S E C T I O]

When you watch kyle f1 videos he often warns you that even he, who has worked for years as an aerodynamicist for the team that has won the most in the last decade, could not guess anything just by looking, so I have a lot of laughs when someone does categorical statements thanks to his own eyes.I like to imagine him scolded by his wife for not washing the dishes.

[genarro]

The team stated a couple of weeks ago that they are planing a big upgrade for Bahrain GP. wat that postponed because of the brakes and other troubles or are the upgrades comming for this race week in Jeddah?

[mwillems]

The team stated a couple of weeks ago that they are planing a big upgrade for Bahrain GP. wat that postponed because of the brakes and other troubles or are the upgrades comming for this race week in Jeddah?

If the car is not correlating to results back at base it is sensible to pause and assess where that correlation issue lies.
If indeed that is the issue. I'd imagine the braking solution is not optimal and time is to be found there, same with the Merc engine but even with these factors resolved we are no better than a mid table team.

Fortunately there are a lot of new ideas that we can pinch should they work with our solution, what is key here is that there isn't a fundamental issue baked into the car that we cannot resolve. After Jeddah the team will assess the car on a new layout and I expect we will hear more then about what is happening.

I'm still curious about the ported very hot air from those brakes. Could it have been used to blow the diffuser?

It is wait and see time and the only constructive thing we can contribute is patience.