2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[runningmanz]

It's only 2 races into a long season and so many think we are gone. Last race with weeks of wasted time on brake issues, no updates (unlike most others) and basically a Barcelona test spec car we were still fighting with Alpine. Let's at least give it a few more races and see how much gains we can make against those ahead of us.

[NiyolHuayra]

The race article about McLaren's poor performance: https://the-race.com/formula-1/crystal- ... n-mclaren/

[SmallSoldier]

I don't think people are angry Haas is doing well. People are angry that McLaren didn't do better with more resources available.

Does McLaren really have more resources available? According to Steiner himself, the difference in budgets between team is around 10-20 million, which isn’t the deficit that we have been used to in F1… Not only that, Haas has benefit from a 100% focus on the 2022 car, practically bolting a cut floor in the 2021 car and hoping for the best situation last season… While at the same time have had the second highest Wind Tunnel and CFD allocation of any team, which arguably has a larger impact on the car’s performance than the 10-20 million budget difference.

Dallara (who builds the chassis for Haas) isn’t a backyard garage outfit, they have been manufacturing Indycar chasis since 1997 and are the sole manufacturer of the current series, they’ve designed and build the current spec WEC cars… They have a bit of experience… If you add the fact that Haas buys some parts from Ferrari and therefore doesn’t have the cost of development and resources necessary for those parts, it is not entirely surprising to see them doing well.

If you invest on a very expensive team principal and technical director, translated into resources, that means McLaren had more available than Haas.

Not to mention the pure number of employees and the better factory infrastructure.

Haas managed to do better only by loaning Simone Resta. And I don't think Haas had that big of an advantage by focusing on 2022 earlier.

These cars have been in the making since 2020. If you remember, these regulations were planned for 2021.

Not a good idea to make excuses either way. If you view it from a pure budget gap as you pointed it out (10-20 mil at most). Then why did Mercedes and RedBull do so much better with less wind tunnel time?

McLaren's benchmark should not be Haas, but rather the top. Yet in both perspectives, they are way off the mark.

I don't think there is any reason that could be passed as an excuse for the lack of performance. They simply didn't do a good enough job. And thankfully, they admitted to that.

Time to put the head down, and work to get back where they should be.

Well… Seidl doesn’t design the car, he is the Team Principal, he needs to work on ensuring that the structure and processes in the team allows them to deliver, but has no direct impact on the car itself… Key is hopefully the guy we all hype him to be, but the reality is that he came from a mid-tier outfit like STR, he wasn’t the leading designer for Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull (I’m not bashing him, I really do hope that he is as good as we all think he is, he does need to prove it though)… But, 2 guys a team do not make, saying that you have an expensive Team Principal and an expensive Technical Director implies that you have “more resources” it’s a bit unrealistic.

Haas does have less employees, but are you counting Dallara’s as part of Haas Team? Because if you do, you may be a bit surprised, just as how good Dallara’s manufacturing infrastructure is (between both outfits / manufacturing locations in Italy and the US).

I do remember that this rules were planned for 2021, although in 2020 they couldn’t do any aero work (how much each team comply or how they audit that no one was working on them I don’t know, but those would be conspiracy theories that won’t get us anywhere)… What is a fact though is that while McLaren was using resources to try and fight Ferrari in 2020 and in 2021, Haas used both seasons to solely focus on 2022… The amount of resources that Haas placed into 2022 are larger than McLaren just from a perspective of focus, not spending time designing, testing, analyzing and manufacturing parts in 2021 gave them a huge advantage.

I agree with you that Haas can’t and shouldn’t be the benchmark… But to:

A) Under appreciate the amount of resources that Haas has been able to dedicate to 2022.
B) Understand that from a resource stand point, Haas is not that far away from McLaren.
C) Not acknowledge the difference in investment (CFD Time, Wind Time, Resources) towards the 2022 car from both outfits, when the scale shifts towards a way larger investment from Haas.
C) Undermine the Haas Team, their employees and making it an “insult” for them to be ahead of McLaren

Is simply wrong in my opinion… Very arrogant and really hoping that’s not the attitude of the Team itself.

I don’t think the team is making excuses, the performance isn’t there and it’s disappointing to watch them fight in the midfield (even if it would be at the front of it)… That’s undeniable… But we shouldn’t belittle other Team’s efforts because we aren’t happy with where we are compared to them.

[Ground Effect]

From the impression we were given, and I’m sure Zak has said this multiple times, McLaren’s main problem wasn’t designers or engineers, it was leadership. Zak never talked about infrastructure until Andreas came in, which is fair, someone like Andreas would be in a better position to talk about that. I’m not one for conspiracy theories, but isn’t it more than likely that Haas is getting help from Ferrari, more than it should be? They share offices, have staff loaned out, etc? Haas on their own, with Dallara struggle to understand their cars in recent seasons. They don’t understand the tyres, upgrades don’t work and so on. So Haas more or less have the resources of Ferrari to a certain extent. There’s a reason why Andreas, Zak complain about policing B-teams, it’s because it’s a real thing. It’s likely they’re sharing data, which would help both teams, with Ferrari benefiting from the large wind tunnel time Haas got. Unfortunately, it can’t be proved, so McLaren have to deal with it, hold out till they update their own infrastructure. But truth be told, they did a bad job with the rules obviously, I would expect a lot more from them, even with their restrictions, but I still don’t think it’s a level playing field with the B-teams.

[Emag]

From the impression we were given, and I’m sure Zak has said this multiple times, McLaren’s main problem wasn’t designers or engineers, it was leadership. Zak never talked about infrastructure until Andreas came in, which is fair, someone like Andreas would be in a better position to talk about that. I’m not one for conspiracy theories, but isn’t it more than likely that Haas is getting help from Ferrari, more than it should be? They share offices, have staff loaned out, etc? Haas on their own, with Dallara struggle to understand their cars in recent seasons. They don’t understand the tyres, upgrades don’t work and so on. So Haas more or less have the resources of Ferrari to a certain extent. There’s a reason why Andreas, Zak complain about policing B-teams, it’s because it’s a real thing. It’s likely they’re sharing data, which would help both teams, with Ferrari benefiting from the large wind tunnel time Haas got. Unfortunately, it can’t be proved, so McLaren have to deal with it, hold out till they update their own infrastructure. But truth be told, they did a bad job with the rules obviously, I would expect a lot more from them, even with their restrictions, but I still don’t think it’s a level playing field with the B-teams.

Haas and Ferrari have pretty much the same concept. Obviously, Ferrari has the resources and technical capabilities to develop that concept further, but the core is very similar.

And it's the same with AlphaTauri / RedBull to be honest.

But then there's Mercedes, which shares no similarities with their customers, yet they are quite a bit ahead compared to McLaren.

Sure, Mercedes is not at the same level as RB/Ferrari at the moment. But the feeling is they have plenty of pace to unlock.

And in my opinion, that should be the target. If Mercedes could do it without any B-team help, why shouldn't McLaren be able to do that?

And obviously, McLaren has other disadvantages right now, but they are quite off from Mercedes so my point stands.

And I think the mentality "But Mercedes is an amazing team, so we shouldn't expect to beat them" is very wrong.

If you think you are inferior to someone then you are immediately placing yourself at a disadvantage. Once the simulator and the wind tunnel arrives, there should be no "fear" in facing the top teams.

[taperoo2k]

It all depends on why they are slow. If its an easy fix due to one 'item' no problem, back by next week.
I feel the 'problem' ties into the overheating disks. something infront of the axle is disrupting everything designed to take advantage behind it, and it had to be changed due to the break problem.

If they can get around it things should be OK, if not they have a dud.

I expect they will have a better solution for the overheating brakes in due course. Once they've fixed it, then they'll know where they are in terms of downforce levels and what's required to improve it. Worst case for McLaren ? The season becomes one long test session to figure out what went wrong, fix it and produce a better car for the 2023 season. McLaren really needs the new wind tunnel to arrive on schedule, which is late 2022 last time I checked.

[Big Tea]

It all depends on why they are slow. If its an easy fix due to one 'item' no problem, back by next week.
I feel the 'problem' ties into the overheating disks. something infront of the axle is disrupting everything designed to take advantage behind it, and it had to be changed due to the break problem.

If they can get around it things should be OK, if not they have a dud.

I expect they will have a better solution for the overheating brakes in due course. Once they've fixed it, then they'll know where they are in terms of downforce levels and what's required to improve it. Worst case for McLaren ? The season becomes one long test session to figure out what went wrong, fix it and produce a better car for the 2023 season. McLaren really needs the new wind tunnel to arrive on schedule, which is late 2022 last time I checked.

What I mean is that they may have been depending on what ever is causing the overheating.
For instance, a particular path of airflow off the front wing onto the main body. If this flow is what is cooking the disks, they will have a much bigger job regaining time as they will have to change the ethos of the original design.

If it is pure mechanical in the wheel and intake, it will not mean big alterations anywhere else though, so should be right soon.

[A.J.O]

It all depends on why they are slow. If its an easy fix due to one 'item' no problem, back by next week.
I feel the 'problem' ties into the overheating disks. something infront of the axle is disrupting everything designed to take advantage behind it, and it had to be changed due to the break problem.

If they can get around it things should be OK, if not they have a dud.

I expect they will have a better solution for the overheating brakes in due course. Once they've fixed it, then they'll know where they are in terms of downforce levels and what's required to improve it. Worst case for McLaren ? The season becomes one long test session to figure out what went wrong, fix it and produce a better car for the 2023 season. McLaren really needs the new wind tunnel to arrive on schedule, which is late 2022 last time I checked.

What I mean is that they may have been depending on what ever is causing the overheating.
For instance, a particular path of airflow off the front wing onto the main body. If this flow is what is cooking the disks, they will have a much bigger job regaining time as they will have to change the ethos of the original design.

If it is pure mechanical in the wheel and intake, it will not mean big alterations anywhere else though, so should be right soon.

Seems they are happy with the brake fix brought to Bahrain. I wouldn't expect any further updates.
Scroll to 7min mark in this video to hear what James Key had to say https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/vide ... 52322.html

It's very interesting to hear him say that they brought no updates to Jeddah but when you look at this pic from the race the floor looks different https://www.prostarpics.com/saudi-arabi ... /e232d591a

[diffuser]

What I’m struggling to get my head round is why don’t fans/ members of this forum/ team personnel show the competition some respect. It’s like Haas aren’t allowed to be successful??
Yes Mclaren producing a slowish car realitive to the competition because they didn’t set themselves a high enough target is frustrating but to slag off Haas because their intelligent employees have formed their own sound solution of their own without copying anyone is ludicrous.

Think alot of people don't realise that Haas is using all Ferrari suspension parts, they're buying everything they're allowed to buy. Then they use Ferrari employess using Ferrari equipment, including wind tunnel at the Ferrari plant, to make the Haas car. Technically they have better equipment than McLaren. They also have more than 25% more wind tunnel time than McLaren. So it isn't that big a surprise.



Haas might be the story of 2022 cause teams like McLaren and Alpine are gonna start getting pissed with Haas having employees @ Maranello rubbing elbows with Ferrari Personel.

[JordanMugen]

So Haas more or less have the resources of Ferrari to a certain extent. There’s a reason why Andreas, Zak complain about policing B-teams, it’s because it’s a real thing. ... I still don’t think it’s a level playing field with the B-teams.

There is nothing stopping McLaren forming a similar arrangement with Alpine, or from starting their own B-team. In the past, Force India used the McLaren gearbox (& rear suspension?) for example.

Think alot of people don't realise that Haas is using all Ferrari suspension parts, they're buying everything they're allowed to buy.

What's wrong with that?! It keeps people employed at Maranello and can only be a good thing.

McLaren could use the same arrangement with Alpine or even Mercedes (as Williams and Aston Martin do), yet McLaren choose not to.

Whether McLaren want to take on B-team status, or start or buy their own B-team like Red Bull or Honda did, those options are all there: just a matter of putting the funding package and capital in place.

For instance, Williams Racing was sold recently. It would be quite something for McLaren to buy Williams Racing, given their past rivalry, but it would absolutely have provided tremendous economies of scale.

Haas might be the story of 2022 cause teams like McLaren and Alpine are gonna start getting pissed

Then why haven't McLaren and Alpine joined forces to improve economies of scale?

Heck, Renault didn't even offer discounts or, for example, Dacia sponsorship to ensure McLaren remained in the Renault fold. An association with exotic sportscar maker McLaren, would be quite the coup to increase the prestige of the Romanian manufacturer of economy cars!

If McLaren and Alpine are annoyed that HAAS has access to Ferrari's world class facilities on the cheap, why are they not pairing up to halve the costs of having their own world class facilities?! With the resource restriction agreement, a wind tunnel has more than enough days available for two Grand Prix teams to use it.

Since McLaren started using Renault engines in 2018, the two parties could already be using their hypothetical joint-venture site by now, located halfway between Enstone and Woking, with world class wind tunnel, simulator and AVL dyno., and perhaps the joint gearbox and suspension design office, and manufacturing for gearbox and suspension.

Besides, where were the complaints last season about Ferrari and HAAS having superior shared facilities and shared parts, when McLaren were beating them?!

[diffuser]

So Haas more or less have the resources of Ferrari to a certain extent. There’s a reason why Andreas, Zak complain about policing B-teams, it’s because it’s a real thing. ... I still don’t think it’s a level playing field with the B-teams.

There is nothing stopping McLaren forming a similar arrangement with Alpine, or from starting their own B-team. In the past, Force India used the McLaren gearbox (& rear suspension?) for example.

Think alot of people don't realise that Haas is using all Ferrari suspension parts, they're buying everything they're allowed to buy.

What's wrong with that?! It keeps people employed at Maranello and can only be a good thing.

McLaren could use the same arrangement with Alpine or even Mercedes (as Williams and Aston Martin do), yet McLaren choose not to.

Whether McLaren want to take on B-team status, or start or buy their own B-team like Red Bull or Honda did, those options are all there: just a matter of putting the funding package and capital in place.

For instance, Williams Racing was sold recently. It would be quite something for McLaren to buy Williams Racing, given their past rivalry, but it would absolutely have provided tremendous economies of scale.

Haas might be the story of 2022 cause teams like McLaren and Alpine are gonna start getting pissed

Then why haven't McLaren and Alpine joined forces to improve economies of scale?

Heck, Renault didn't even offer discounts or, for example, Dacia sponsorship to ensure McLaren remained in the Renault fold. An association with exotic sportscar maker McLaren, would be quite the coup to increase the prestige of the Romanian manufacturer of economy cars!

If McLaren and Alpine are annoyed that HAAS has access to Ferrari's world class facilities on the cheap, why are they not pairing up to halve the costs of having their own world class facilities?! With the resource restriction agreement, a wind tunnel has more than enough days available for two Grand Prix teams to use it.

Since McLaren started using Renault engines in 2018, the two parties could already be using their hypothetical joint-venture site by now, located halfway between Enstone and Woking, with world class wind tunnel, simulator and AVL dyno., and perhaps the joint gearbox and suspension design office, and manufacturing for gearbox and suspension.

Besides, where were the complaints last season about Ferrari and HAAS having superior shared facilities and shared parts, when McLaren were beating them?!

Think K-Mag is making the difference. Also last year Haas's development was non existent, plus Ferrari was still moving chess pieces around.

Pretty sure there will be a rule to block Haas. Force them to be more like Merc and AMR. Where Merc can't use the wind tunnel on weekends only AMR can and vice versa. They also will have to build their own facilities or get Dallara to build their parts. Just to easy for Haas to help Ferrari with aero time and for Ferrari to help solve Haas's problems.

[aran.vtec]

HAAS was just used as an reference (If HAAS can improve why have Mclaren gone backwards)

HAAS is at best 4/5th fastest car Mclaren should be fighting the top 3 HAAS shouldn't even been in the discussion!

This year all the excuses for Mclaren are over with all the shake up in the structure they have still not managed to build a car with good chassis/aero to me at least it seems like they have been looking in the wrong areas and there is still a massive issue inside the team.

[basti313]

What I’m struggling to get my head round is why don’t fans/ members of this forum/ team personnel show the competition some respect. It’s like Haas aren’t allowed to be successful??
Yes Mclaren producing a slowish car realitive to the competition because they didn’t set themselves a high enough target is frustrating but to slag off Haas because their intelligent employees have formed their own sound solution of their own without copying anyone is ludicrous.

Think alot of people don't realise that Haas is using all Ferrari suspension parts, they're buying everything they're allowed to buy. Then they use Ferrari employess using Ferrari equipment, including wind tunnel at the Ferrari plant, to make the Haas car. Technically they have better equipment than McLaren. They also have more than 25% more wind tunnel time than McLaren. So it isn't that big a surprise.



Haas might be the story of 2022 cause teams like McLaren and Alpine are gonna start getting pissed with Haas having employees @ Maranello rubbing elbows with Ferrari Personel.

Well, I think this is all too short sighted.
First of all, there is no "pissed" so far. There are comments on Haas personal drinking coffee with Ferrari personal. Of course they are making comments...but there is nothing to prove and no official transfer of information. Should FIA forbid drinking coffee?

Furthermore there are three points:
- McLaren is one of the losers of the Hybrid aera, that was the target of the new engine rules, not a mistake or surprising. Just like RedBull should have been, but they did better politics with Honda. McLaren is and will be a B team if they not secure a works like engine contract. Renault supply is not better, rather worse, than a supply from Merc.
- Haas will disappear like before. They have a good car now, but even with the link to Ferrari still no way to develop it further.
- McLaren is/was nearly broken financially. I am surprised how well they keep up. RedBull Technology, Merc, Ferrari are much better targets for employees as even if F1 is not paying anymore they get another good job in the tech company. McLaren is much more limited. Same goes for infrastructure. On the other hand this limits the room for going to purchased parts. They need to develop their own gearbox, suspension, etc... otherwise they have to let people go.

[Spoutnik]

What I’m struggling to get my head round is why don’t fans/ members of this forum/ team personnel show the competition some respect. It’s like Haas aren’t allowed to be successful??
Yes Mclaren producing a slowish car realitive to the competition because they didn’t set themselves a high enough target is frustrating but to slag off Haas because their intelligent employees have formed their own sound solution of their own without copying anyone is ludicrous.

Think alot of people don't realise that Haas is using all Ferrari suspension parts, they're buying everything they're allowed to buy. Then they use Ferrari employess using Ferrari equipment, including wind tunnel at the Ferrari plant, to make the Haas car. Technically they have better equipment than McLaren. They also have more than 25% more wind tunnel time than McLaren. So it isn't that big a surprise.



Haas might be the story of 2022 cause teams like McLaren and Alpine are gonna start getting pissed with Haas having employees @ Maranello rubbing elbows with Ferrari Personel.

Well, I think this is all too short sighted.
First of all, there is no "pissed" so far. There are comments on Haas personal drinking coffee with Ferrari personal. Of course they are making comments...but there is nothing to prove and no official transfer of information. Should FIA forbid drinking coffee?

Furthermore there are three points:
- McLaren is one of the losers of the Hybrid aera, that was the target of the new engine rules, not a mistake or surprising. Just like RedBull should have been, but they did better politics with Honda. McLaren is and will be a B team if they not secure a works like engine contract. Renault supply is not better, rather worse, than a supply from Merc.
- Haas will disappear like before. They have a good car now, but even with the link to Ferrari still no way to develop it further.
- McLaren is/was nearly broken financially. I am surprised how well they keep up. RedBull Technology, Merc, Ferrari are much better targets for employees as even if F1 is not paying anymore they get another good job in the tech company. McLaren is much more limited. Same goes for infrastructure. On the other hand this limits the room for going to purchased parts. They need to develop their own gearbox, suspension, etc... otherwise they have to let people go.

Interesting comments...
McLaren's best years to date were with a Renault engine.
By getting close to supplier like Renault it's possible to build a successful partenership as Red Bull did with Honda...
I don't think McLaren was targeted to be a loser of the hybrid era, they had litteraly the best engine in 2014, they tried something with Honda, and they let them go when they started improving. From their they had a very reliable PU with a little power deficit but Red Bull managed to win some race with it you know...

They don't need to build their own engine again to be successful... Especially as engine are said to be more or less equal now.

[CjC]

So Haas more or less have the resources of Ferrari to a certain extent. There’s a reason why Andreas, Zak complain about policing B-teams, it’s because it’s a real thing. ... I still don’t think it’s a level playing field with the B-teams.

There is nothing stopping McLaren forming a similar arrangement with Alpine, or from starting their own B-team. In the past, Force India used the McLaren gearbox (& rear suspension?) for example.

Think alot of people don't realise that Haas is using all Ferrari suspension parts, they're buying everything they're allowed to buy.

What's wrong with that?! It keeps people employed at Maranello and can only be a good thing.

McLaren could use the same arrangement with Alpine or even Mercedes (as Williams and Aston Martin do), yet McLaren choose not to.

Whether McLaren want to take on B-team status, or start or buy their own B-team like Red Bull or Honda did, those options are all there: just a matter of putting the funding package and capital in place.

For instance, Williams Racing was sold recently. It would be quite something for McLaren to buy Williams Racing, given their past rivalry, but it would absolutely have provided tremendous economies of scale.

Haas might be the story of 2022 cause teams like McLaren and Alpine are gonna start getting pissed

Then why haven't McLaren and Alpine joined forces to improve economies of scale?

Heck, Renault didn't even offer discounts or, for example, Dacia sponsorship to ensure McLaren remained in the Renault fold. An association with exotic sportscar maker McLaren, would be quite the coup to increase the prestige of the Romanian manufacturer of economy cars!

If McLaren and Alpine are annoyed that HAAS has access to Ferrari's world class facilities on the cheap, why are they not pairing up to halve the costs of having their own world class facilities?! With the resource restriction agreement, a wind tunnel has more than enough days available for two Grand Prix teams to use it.

Since McLaren started using Renault engines in 2018, the two parties could already be using their hypothetical joint-venture site by now, located halfway between Enstone and Woking, with world class wind tunnel, simulator and AVL dyno., and perhaps the joint gearbox and suspension design office, and manufacturing for gearbox and suspension.

Besides, where were the complaints last season about Ferrari and HAAS having superior shared facilities and shared parts, when McLaren were beating them?!

Surely the VW rumours is music to your ears.
If the rumours are true and VW buy/ purchase shares in Mclaren and Red Bull you would imagine Red Bull-Porsche will be the flag ship team because RB have developed RB powertrains, which would leave Mclaren and Alpha Tauri as B teams... it’s could be Mclaren-SEAT or Skoda? (No disrespect to those aforementioned car companies intended)