2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

I think you are misinterpreting what he said. The DF isn't what's causing it, but once it gets started the DF makes it worse.

The problem, in Mercedes case is, even they are not clear what's causing it or what is making it worse! I doubt anyone outside of the team can even put a finger on the problem. To then say, they have most downforce of any team and that's why they have the problem, makes no sense. What we have seen being explained by various pundits is a simple conjecture of what they think is happening, which is that there is suction (from downforce) under the floor that pulls the car down and then there is stall, which releases the downforce and pushes the car back. Problem is, it's such a simple explanation of such a complex problem. I don't think anyone outside of the team knows where the problem exactly is. I would refrain from making conjectures of the problem and then use that as a reason to big up the team.

what you are describing is a choked diffusor. The solution lies in a new underbody with new inlet and diffusor. This is going to take some time to correct and fabricate. There is also likely a correlation issue between their CFD and windtunnel which may not be calibrated correctly. We saw they started to have aero issues the start of 2020 already even in that year they referred to their car as a Diva. The W12 was a carry over and carried some of those issues from 2020 into 2021. Now the W13 is looking difficult. This is not a one-off problem. There's something else going on back at the factory that's translating into these challenges

All good theories. One thing I'd mention is that CFD and Windtunnel don't have suspension systems so the porpoising is a problem they were basically blindsided by.

[ringo]

One thing for sure is the engineers will learn a lot that they maybe did not know about or cared to consider after these challenges are overcome.
I think with the data they gathered from the two races, they should be able to redesign and simulate a new floor at much lower cost than they would if they did not collect field data.

[wogx]

[Just_a_fan]

https://preview.redd.it/87kycjejrtr81.j ... 532c2acbf4

Good to see Lewis has got George doing the heavy lifting for him. At his age, Lewis needs to start taking things easy.

[Big Tea]

I'll go ahead, you weight behind

[vorticism]

All during the greenwashing era, though--not an insignificant detail. Brackley only found success after the engine formula change in 2014; their power unit was the source of their record. As engine parity has been achieved over time, their leads diminished. Parity is such that even Audi are now considering entering the sport.

They weren't known for being aero leaders compared to RB for example, who won their titles prior to 2014 when aero was more critical, and engines were at closer to parity. As parity sets in again RB and Ferrari rise back in the ranks. That RB were able to keep up while using the early Renault PUs says something about the level of their chassis and aero work. Merc cars' aero usually had a bit of a design by brute force computation look to them. Staff size and money do not necessarily equate to good design leadership, so it's possible they could be barking up the wrong tree with these anhedral sidepods.

Had FIA stays against stays remained stayed they might be looking even less staid than what's already been displayed.

engine is not far ahead for years now, still they managed to get those titles except last year.
Even when ferrari cheated with their engine, they won the title and they had years when they were absolutely the best team aero wise, dominating in monaco as example.

I mean come one. 8 titles are 8 titles. they even came out on top on the last rule change what no one else did before.

Exactly, people want to live in make believe narratives even when Mercedes themselves have said that they misdirected the attention to the engine when the real innovation was suspension and aero.

Why not use those tricks to win titles 2010-2013 then? I'll give you both that their budget and manpower would have swelled after the first few turbo-hybrid seasons, which would have helped them as engine performance equalized. Regardless, even as performance equalized they had what was the more reliable power unit, which goes back to my original point.

[wogx]

Wolff: Mercedes won’t have ‘magic fix’ for Melbourne

Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff denies that Mercedes has a “magic fix” for the upcoming Australian Grand Prix.

At the opening two rounds of the 2022 Formula 1 season, Mercedes was notably the third fastest team on the grid.

The eight-time Constructors’ Champions has been suffering from severe bouncing on the straights, and wasn’t in contention for victory in Bahrain or Saudi Arabia.

With the sport returning to Melbourne this weekend for the first time since 2019, Wolff states he is expecting Mercedes to be off the pace compared to Ferrari and Red Bull once again.

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2022/04/ ... melbourne/

[JordanMugen]

As I said it already in this thread in the past, in my opinion any commentary that assumes Merc isn't smart

Isn't the problem precisely that "smart people outsmart each other, then themselves" as a signature says on here? Mike Elliot seems obsessed with the theoretical performance of the car rather than the actual performance.

Maybe Mercedes (and Aston Martin) can unlock the theoretical performance, but what if they can't and ought to focus instead on the accessible performance? At some point perhaps they need to accept that their work in CFD and wind tunnel from before they could correlate with an actual car was just not correct.

Edit - If the car has strengths in low speed corners, perhaps they can focus on circuits like Monaco and Hungary as their best chances for big points and victories?

[Gillian]

engine is not far ahead for years now, still they managed to get those titles except last year.
Even when ferrari cheated with their engine, they won the title and they had years when they were absolutely the best team aero wise, dominating in monaco as example.

I mean come one. 8 titles are 8 titles. they even came out on top on the last rule change what no one else did before.

Exactly, people want to live in make believe narratives even when Mercedes themselves have said that they misdirected the attention to the engine when the real innovation was suspension and aero.

Why not use those tricks to win titles 2010-2013 then? I'll give you both that their budget and manpower would have swelled after the first few turbo-hybrid seasons, which would have helped them as engine performance equalized. Regardless, even as performance equalized they had what was the more reliable power unit, which goes back to my original point.

Mercedes has had the best engine for almost the entire hybrid age, probably except for 2019. What that year showed is how important PU performance is/was because Ferrari with their illegal rocket should have gotten the title. They just messed up and Hamilton was the better driver by a mile that season. Hamilton driving for Ferrari in 2017 - 2019 would surely have gotten atleast one title. Apart from that I think we've had maybe 1 season where their chassis was better than RB. But even so Mercedes have always been top 3 on chassis I would dare say. 2014 isn't representative for the entire period. Yes always a top PU but also a great chassis and driver.

[f1jcw]

Apart from that I think we've had maybe 1 season where their chassis was better than RB.

There is no evidence for this either way beyond your own personal beliefi that Redbull must be better then everything else chassis wise.

[JordanMugen]

Apart from that I think we've had maybe 1 season where their chassis was better than RB.

There is no evidence for this either way beyond your own personal beliefi that Redbull must be better then everything else chassis wise.

Mercedes never agreed the customer Mercedes HPP supply which Red Bull Racing were shopping for from 2016, so we can't really tell.

But certainly Mercedes GP are a fine chassis builder with their insistence on a successful a low-rake approach. They gave up the extra diffuser volume & extra angle of attack, which 8-9 of the other teams preferred to run, and they defeated them with low-rake.

[Gillian]

Apart from that I think we've had maybe 1 season where their chassis was better than RB.

There is no evidence for this either way beyond your own personal beliefi that Redbull must be better then everything else chassis wise.

Not sure why you delete almost the entire post which takes away the context.

[Gillian]

Apart from that I think we've had maybe 1 season where their chassis was better than RB.

There is no evidence for this either way beyond your own personal beliefi that Redbull must be better then everything else chassis wise.

Mercedes never agreed the customer Mercedes HPP supply which Red Bull Racing were shopping for from 2016, so we can't really tell.

But certainly Mercedes GP are a fine chassis builder with their insistence on a successful a low-rake approach. They gave up the extra diffuser volume & extra angle of attack, which 8-9 of the other teams preferred to run, and they defeated them with low-rake.

Indeed so but why would Mercedes not supply Red Bull if not for their fear of how competitive they would be with the same engine?

Sure it's all conjecture.

[f1jcw]

Apart from that I think we've had maybe 1 season where their chassis was better than RB.

There is no evidence for this either way beyond your own personal beliefi that Redbull must be better then everything else chassis wise.

Mercedes never agreed the customer Mercedes HPP supply which Red Bull Racing were shopping for from 2016, so we can't really tell.

But certainly Mercedes GP are a fine chassis builder with their insistence on a successful a low-rake approach. They gave up the extra diffuser volume & extra angle of attack, which 8-9 of the other teams preferred to run, and they defeated them with low-rake.

Whey would you sell the engine to a manufacturer that had being abusive to their previous engine supplier and was also an abusive competitior

[f1jcw]

There is no evidence for this either way beyond your own personal beliefi that Redbull must be better then everything else chassis wise.

Mercedes never agreed the customer Mercedes HPP supply which Red Bull Racing were shopping for from 2016, so we can't really tell.

But certainly Mercedes GP are a fine chassis builder with their insistence on a successful a low-rake approach. They gave up the extra diffuser volume & extra angle of attack, which 8-9 of the other teams preferred to run, and they defeated them with low-rake.

Indeed so but why would Mercedes not supply Red Bull if not for their fear of how competitive they would be with the same engine?

If that is all the evidence you are using to base your claim that RedBull were supperior aerowise, then you have less then Jack.