Mercedes W13

[NoDivergence]

Teams are changing wings from race to race according to df demand. But I don't know if they are doing same with floor which is main df part for now. I am not sure if merc's porpoising solution is lesser df from floor with new floor and more df from wings.

Rideheight can tweak the floor load.

Not only can, but absolutely will. More downforce from the floor means less required from wings. Unless it's an ultimate df type track

[mantikos]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... glT7h.html

TECH TUESDAY: Have Mercedes finally cracked their porpoising issue with Barcelona upgrade package?

Special contributor
Mark Hughes

From the article:
Now that they aren't running compromised ride height...
The absence of porpoising on the straight greatly enhanced the car’s straight-line speed, and Hamilton was fastest through the trap in qualifying.


Man, must be super draggy to be that fast in a straight line /s

[pocketmoon]

Ominous. Merc has ended their porpoising with shocking effectiveness. It remains to be seen what this looks like when they can lap as quick as Ferrari/RB though.

Hamilton was burning up the track after his first proper stint. He was taking almost a 0.8s lap out of the leader(s) until cooling issues 3 laps from the end.

Hopefully Merc understand why the car switch on for Hamilton after the 1st stint.

[mkay]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... glT7h.html

TECH TUESDAY: Have Mercedes finally cracked their porpoising issue with Barcelona upgrade package?

Special contributor
Mark Hughes

From the article:
Now that they aren't running compromised ride height...
The absence of porpoising on the straight greatly enhanced the car’s straight-line speed, and Hamilton was fastest through the trap in qualifying.


Man, must be super draggy to be that fast in a straight line /s

I'd reserve judgment on drag levels until Baku and Canada.

Merc ran its PU2 this weekend whilst Ferrari and RB ran PU1.

[dialtone]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... glT7h.html

TECH TUESDAY: Have Mercedes finally cracked their porpoising issue with Barcelona upgrade package?

Special contributor
Mark Hughes

From the article:
Now that they aren't running compromised ride height...
The absence of porpoising on the straight greatly enhanced the car’s straight-line speed, and Hamilton was fastest through the trap in qualifying.


Man, must be super draggy to be that fast in a straight line /s

I'd reserve judgment on drag levels until Baku and Canada.

Merc ran its PU2 this weekend whilst Ferrari and RB ran PU1.

Ferrari ran PU2 but Merc was nowhere near Sainz or Verstappen in top speed in the race average lap. Equivalent difference to what Leclerc and Verstappen had in Bahrain and Jeddah and everyone called Ferrari draggy and RedBull dragster.

More races will help.

[Big Tea]

Ominous. Merc has ended their porpoising with shocking effectiveness. It remains to be seen what this looks like when they can lap as quick as Ferrari/RB though.

Hamilton was burning up the track after his first proper stint. He was taking almost a 0.8s lap out of the leader(s) until cooling issues 3 laps from the end.

Hopefully Merc understand why the car switch on for Hamilton after the 1st stint.

Maybe we will see the cars in Monaco with bites out of the floor
If it works, copy it

[VacuousFlamboyant]

By no means porpoising has been solved. It's a step in the right direction, but there are still many parts to introduce and refine. It was running low to the ground to prevent porpoising. The working window is still narrow, whilst the ideal ride height shouln't be rock-bottom. Lowering the rear suspension to the ground helped reducing the oscillations at the back.


https://www.racecar-engineering.com/new ... ion-model/

The positive quirk is that the floor should be able to produce much more downforce when porpoising is ironed out.

[Hutchie.91]

By no means porpoising has been solved. It's a step in the right direction, but there are still many parts to introduce and refine. It was running low to the ground to prevent porpoising. The working window is still narrow, whilst the ideal ride height shouln't be rock-bottom. Lowering the rear suspension to the ground helped reducing the oscillations at the back.

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... ture-3.png
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/new ... ion-model/

The positive quirk is that the floor should be able to produce much more downforce when porpoising is ironed out.

The problem is, there are multiple phenomena that can cause the porpoising and so fixing it isn't an easy task. It's not just a case of floor/diffuser choking and compensating with ride height or spring rates under compression, you might also have flow seperation hysteresis as well to deal with. It's not just aero that contributes to it as well, you can have a situation where the car bottoms out on the bump stops with such magnitude from the downforce that it help rebound the sprung mass back up.

But the bottom line is, teams don't care much about the porpoising if the net performance is still there under porpoising conditions, which at least for Ferrari and Redbull, it clearly is. Removing/reducing the porpoising is pointless if you are now half a second a lap off the pace to the top two teams, assuming that the drivers can still live with it and is no longer a health/safety concern for the drivers or from a reliability concern with regards to cyclic fatigue, (although I doubt that is an issue unless they got unlucky with porpoising frequency getting close to a part's natural frequency? - im probably talking out of my arse on this one).

[AMG.Tzan]

Why didn’t they race the Miami spec front wing with the clever end plate??

[holeindalip]

Why didn’t they race the Miami spec front wing with the clever end plate??

They did, check the photos from the previous page

Edit:nm I see it was answered in the team thread

[zibby43]

By no means porpoising has been solved. It's a step in the right direction, but there are still many parts to introduce and refine. It was running low to the ground to prevent porpoising. The working window is still narrow, whilst the ideal ride height shouln't be rock-bottom. Lowering the rear suspension to the ground helped reducing the oscillations at the back.

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... ture-3.png
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/new ... ion-model/

The positive quirk is that the floor should be able to produce much more downforce when porpoising is ironed out.

Isn't it the opposite?

You run higher to prevent the porpoising. Not lower.

Merc had the least amount of porpoising of any team in Barcelona.

[Cocles]

... The fact that W13 chassis w/o RW isn't low drag showed this weekend again, when W13 wasn't that much faster on straights even with significantly smaller RW compared to RB18 and F1-75. RW choice and DRS flap geometry for each race this year proved to be the biggest differentiators when it came to overall drag, ie top speed of each car. As I said at the time, I took launch RW + airbox geometry and CFD results with launch sidepods of W13 into account when I stated the infamous 5% number back in the winter. 6 races later, everything points to the same conclusion, even with completely different sidepods of W13 compared to launch spec.

https://i.imgur.com/6LinfjR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/l1HMlxG.jpg

Nice. Evidence! This is the way!

It looks like those photos are all under breaking or in a curve. I'm not saying the point won't stand, but we need photos highlighted like these from when the cars were at speed to account for the ridiculous amount of wing flex (as established on here) these front wings have.

[marcel171281]

By no means porpoising has been solved. It's a step in the right direction, but there are still many parts to introduce and refine. It was running low to the ground to prevent porpoising. The working window is still narrow, whilst the ideal ride height shouln't be rock-bottom. Lowering the rear suspension to the ground helped reducing the oscillations at the back.

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... ture-3.png
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/new ... ion-model/

The positive quirk is that the floor should be able to produce much more downforce when porpoising is ironed out.

Isn't it the opposite?

You run higher to prevent the porpoising. Not lower.

Merc had the least amount of porpoising of any team in Barcelona.

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.png

I have my very doubts about this graph. The x-axis is the total duration of the race, or in time, 1,5 hours. The graphs are made up of 1 point per lap. How can you than see a phenomenon that has an interval of a couple of times per second only at a couple of points per lap?

Without any information how this data has been obtained, it doesn't say anything. Might as well that the Alpine squats the most coming out of the last chicane or something like that.

[mzivtins]

By no means porpoising has been solved. It's a step in the right direction, but there are still many parts to introduce and refine. It was running low to the ground to prevent porpoising. The working window is still narrow, whilst the ideal ride height shouln't be rock-bottom. Lowering the rear suspension to the ground helped reducing the oscillations at the back.

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... ture-3.png
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/new ... ion-model/

The positive quirk is that the floor should be able to produce much more downforce when porpoising is ironed out.

Isn't it the opposite?

You run higher to prevent the porpoising. Not lower.

Merc had the least amount of porpoising of any team in Barcelona.

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.png

I have my very doubts about this graph. The x-axis is the total duration of the race, or in time, 1,5 hours. The graphs are made up of 1 point per lap. How can you than see a phenomenon that has an interval of a couple of times per second only at a couple of points per lap?

Without any information how this data has been obtained, it doesn't say anything. Might as well that the Alpine squats the most coming out of the last chicane or something like that.

I think the data is min/max, so it shows the absolute maximum g experience vertically for the car, it is still relevant data, but i agree seeing this plotted as an average lap with something like 250hz would be the real telling as we could then see what cars have bouncing in high speed corners

[marcel171281]

Isn't it the opposite?

You run higher to prevent the porpoising. Not lower.

Merc had the least amount of porpoising of any team in Barcelona.

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.png

I have my very doubts about this graph. The x-axis is the total duration of the race, or in time, 1,5 hours. The graphs are made up of 1 point per lap. How can you than see a phenomenon that has an interval of a couple of times per second only at a couple of points per lap?

Without any information how this data has been obtained, it doesn't say anything. Might as well that the Alpine squats the most coming out of the last chicane or something like that.

I think the data is min/max, so it shows the absolute maximum g experience vertically for the car, it is still relevant data, but i agree seeing this plotted as an average lap with something like 250hz would be the real telling as we could then see what cars have bouncing in high speed corners

Exactly. If you have the think what a graph might be representing, the graph isn't really telling much is it? If it really is the highest vertical g-force load per lap, it might as well is because the Alpine takes the sausage curb the hardest en smacks hardest to the ground. In that case there is no relation to porpoising at all. If the porpoising creates the highest vertical load during a lap, than it is representative for it. But you can't see in which cases it is, so maybe we are comparing apple with oranges if we compare cars like this.

You need to be sure, that the loads are from exactly the same track sections to start with for every car, with intervals in the graph a lot shorter than 1 per lap. If one than stands out at the end of the main straight or turn 3 or 9 for instance, than we can compare and say something useful about the levels of porpoising.