2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[Mclarensenna]

So your excuse for Ric being slow is that he did not get fast car?
He is slower than his teammate in same car. It does not matter where they start/finish. He has objective and comparable metric - Norris's times. If the car does not suit him, he is free to go, although I imagine his worth dropped rapidly during last 1,5year.
Maybe you are the one who is confused.

I am stating facts not making excuses for drivers.
Norris was better than Ric in France its fact nobody can deny but Norris was still a massive 1.2 seconds off pole and 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap slower in race pace. Norris pace was snail like compared to Max and Leclerc. Its a fact.

Norris finished 7th and Ric 9th.
I am not making excuses for Norris or Ric who as both were slow as snails in France compared to the leaders.
But the main reason they were both slow was the Mclaren with strange driving traits which is the main issue.
So i am not making excuses for either or need to.

What is so confusing about that?

[Ben1980]

Maybe I'm getting confused.

If Lando is able to qualify in 5th, and Daniel comes last. That doesn't tell you the car us rubbish. It tells you the car is able to qualify in 5th.

Now if it qualifies 15th and last, you have a car with problems.

In Q2 as track improved later
Norris was 1.5 seconds off the leader and Ric 1.7 seconds off leader. That is extremely extremely poor no matter which way you look at it.

Norris in Q3 qualified 1.2 seconds off pole.
yet you are confused? seriously?
Any car that far off pole is rubbish.
You aint winning any championship

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2022/gp/s9028 ... s/821-842/
Then look at the lap times. Max 1.5 to even 2 seconds quicker most laps over Norris
Absolute garbage to be honest.

A decent car is maybe a few tenths away. half a second is nowhere. But 1.5 seconds in race pace is seriously a complete joke. You are a backmarker making up the numbers nothing more unfortunately.
Norris and Ric want to win championships not be in cars 1.5 seconds plus off the leaders.

Still confused?

The car isn't winning championships. I don't think anyone seriously expects it to.

1 car can win the championship this year, in fact one driver in one car. Doesn't nean the rest are rubbish.

[runningmanz]

Yes I did read your post and I'm afraid I disagree.

I never said the car was race winning, it's clearly not. I'm saying the Daniel of today (not of yester-year) is unable to adapt to the car in the same way Lando is capable of. There's simply no denying that Daniel has not been performing as well as Lando, regardless of where your loyalties lie.

I agree and also want McLaren to design a race winning car but that doesn't always mean it is easy to drive. Hamilton has won titles with "divas" of cars but that doesn't mean it's not a good car. The car this year isn't "crap". It's clearly not a race winner but then 80% of the grid aren't. The team don't deliberately design a car to be slow or tricky to drive and it's important to remember that. Infrastructure, staff (including drivers), culture all have an effect on the way the car is designed. Hopefully McLaren are going to see some improvements in these areas which will yield results on track.

Also to clarify Ham won titles in a diva car? is this a joke?
Ham has only won titles in the fastest most dominant cars over a season that was quickest at most tracks.

I remember 2017 Wolf would not stop with all the diva talk as i never heard this word in F1 ever before that.

And then almost every race Bottas even would be qualifying 1 second a lap quicker than both Max and Ric.
Bottas finished 3rd in the chmapionship with 305 points that year and we know how slow Bottas is
Russell just jumped in the car in 2020 and had to wear smaller shoes and was about to win very easily before the issue. So Bottas is nowhere near top level.

Ric on 200 and Max 168 that year both demolished by Bottas
yep some Diva that 2017 car was! hahahaha

Hamilton aint winning a championship if he was driving this years Mclaren as that is what you insinuating. Russell has raced Norris and rates him very highly. Ham cannot even beat Russell in his own car and team he knows like the back of his hand for years and is behind Russell in points still. Throw him into this years strange driving Mclaren and he would be doing even worse than Ricciardo against Norris.

Finally someone that just doesn't look at the scoreboard and spout sack him nonsense every week like some of the ignorant folk in here and in the other forums. Yep Dan even said in a recent interview there is still DNA carryover from last year's car that retains some of those quirks. They need to continue to refine and move away from the concept that like you said is different to the norm and never going to be a race winning car.

As mentioned Dan never had this trouble in any other teams and Lando has only ever known the McLaren F1 quirky designs. You don't beat the likes of Verstappen and Vettel without having serious talent or lose that in a matter of months changing teams. At least McLaren seem to understand the long term goal now, about getting the car right. Firing Dan who actually has alot of experience in different teams including the successful RBR is not going to help. Finishing 4th or 5th is pretty much inconsequential in the grand scheme of things and they know it. The car design has to be the main goal and Dan knows a race winning car and how it should feel.

In a way these cost caps suck big time cos now if you get it wrong you can't just throw everything at it moneywise as quick as you can to make amends. Just hope McLaren now have the direction right to engineer these quirks out of the car and get back to winning sooner rather than later.

[Ben1980]

So your excuse for Ric being slow is that he did not get fast car?
He is slower than his teammate in same car. It does not matter where they start/finish. He has objective and comparable metric - Norris's times. If the car does not suit him, he is free to go, although I imagine his worth dropped rapidly during last 1,5year.
Maybe you are the one who is confused.

I am stating facts not making excuses for drivers.
Norris was better than Ric in France its fact nobody can deny but Norris was still a massive 1.2 seconds off pole and 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap slower in race pace. Norris pace was snail like compared to Max and Leclerc. Its a fact.

Norris finished 7th and Ric 9th.
I am not making excuses for Norris or Ric who as both were slow as snails in France compared to the leaders.
But the main reason they were both slow was the Mclaren with strange driving traits which is the main issue.
So i am not making excuses for either or need to.

What is so confusing about that?

They were slower then red bull and Ferrari because they are the best cars and all other teams are slower then them. Nothing to do with the driving traits or whatever.

[Mclarensenna]

So your excuse for Ric being slow is that he did not get fast car?
He is slower than his teammate in same car. It does not matter where they start/finish. He has objective and comparable metric - Norris's times. If the car does not suit him, he is free to go, although I imagine his worth dropped rapidly during last 1,5year.
Maybe you are the one who is confused.

I am stating facts not making excuses for drivers.
Norris was better than Ric in France its fact nobody can deny but Norris was still a massive 1.2 seconds off pole and 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap slower in race pace. Norris pace was snail like compared to Max and Leclerc. Its a fact.

Norris finished 7th and Ric 9th.
I am not making excuses for Norris or Ric who as both were slow as snails in France compared to the leaders.
But the main reason they were both slow was the Mclaren with strange driving traits which is the main issue.
So i am not making excuses for either or need to.

What is so confusing about that?

They were slower then red bull and Ferrari because they are the best cars and all other teams are slower then them. Nothing to do with the driving traits or whatever.

Then what is causing the massive deficit? a magic invisible parachute out the back nobody can see? or is the Merc engine out back detuned by 100 horsepower?
Please clarify why Norris in the race was up to 2 seconds a lap slower than Max in France as i am very confused by what you are implying exactly if the strange driving traits of the chassis have "NOTHING" to do with it?

[Mclarensenna]

Yes I did read your post and I'm afraid I disagree.

I never said the car was race winning, it's clearly not. I'm saying the Daniel of today (not of yester-year) is unable to adapt to the car in the same way Lando is capable of. There's simply no denying that Daniel has not been performing as well as Lando, regardless of where your loyalties lie.

I agree and also want McLaren to design a race winning car but that doesn't always mean it is easy to drive. Hamilton has won titles with "divas" of cars but that doesn't mean it's not a good car. The car this year isn't "crap". It's clearly not a race winner but then 80% of the grid aren't. The team don't deliberately design a car to be slow or tricky to drive and it's important to remember that. Infrastructure, staff (including drivers), culture all have an effect on the way the car is designed. Hopefully McLaren are going to see some improvements in these areas which will yield results on track.

Also to clarify Ham won titles in a diva car? is this a joke?
Ham has only won titles in the fastest most dominant cars over a season that was quickest at most tracks.

I remember 2017 Wolf would not stop with all the diva talk as i never heard this word in F1 ever before that.

And then almost every race Bottas even would be qualifying 1 second a lap quicker than both Max and Ric.
Bottas finished 3rd in the chmapionship with 305 points that year and we know how slow Bottas is
Russell just jumped in the car in 2020 and had to wear smaller shoes and was about to win very easily before the issue. So Bottas is nowhere near top level.

Ric on 200 and Max 168 that year both demolished by Bottas
yep some Diva that 2017 car was! hahahaha

Hamilton aint winning a championship if he was driving this years Mclaren as that is what you insinuating. Russell has raced Norris and rates him very highly. Ham cannot even beat Russell in his own car and team he knows like the back of his hand for years and is behind Russell in points still. Throw him into this years strange driving Mclaren and he would be doing even worse than Ricciardo against Norris.

Finally someone that just doesn't look at the scoreboard and spout sack him nonsense every week like some of the ignorant folk in here and in the other forums. Yep Dan even said in a recent interview there is still DNA carryover from last year's car that retains some of those quirks. They need to continue to refine and move away from the concept that like you said is different to the norm and never going to be a race winning car.

As mentioned Dan never had this trouble in any other teams and Lando has only ever known the McLaren F1 quirky designs. You don't beat the likes of Verstappen and Vettel without having serious talent or lose that in a matter of months changing teams. At least McLaren seem to understand the long term goal now, about getting the car right. Firing Dan who actually has alot of experience in different teams including the successful RBR is not going to help. Finishing 4th or 5th is pretty much inconsequential in the grand scheme of things and they know it. The car design has to be the main goal and Dan knows a race winning car and how it should feel.

In a way these cost caps suck big time cos now if you get it wrong you can't just so everything at it moneywise as quick as you can to make amends. Just hope McLaren now have the direction right to engineer these quirks out if the car and get back to winning sooner rather than later.

Much appreciated good Sir Agree with everything you said!

[mclaren111]

Danny Ric is starting to be under threat again by Ocon. I'm not sure if Lando can get Alonso today. However if Danny finishes in front of Ocon then the difference won't change and Mclaren will still be 4th.

This Ferrari team however are never gonna be champions if they keep racing like that.

They are great at losing championships... Wonder if the strategists are Italian ??

[Spoutnik]

I think Ricciardo isn't confortable with the car because as Sainz said McLaren since last year already is a car in a particular direction, which is the opposite of the Renault. Carlos said he prefered the McLaren for his driving style and it's obviously the opposite for Ric. Thats why Sainz end up being beaten by Hulkenberg...
Norris is a bit of a Russell for me very fast and flexible, Ricciardo isn't Hamiton tho, thats why he hasn't recover.
But I feel he's closer this year with some very good performance where he's equal to Lando (Australia, Imola before the crash, today where he finished 8 sec behind Lando).

[mclaren111]

Can someone answer me how was the drag of the car compared to the last set up?

I think a decent improvement... Will need time to fully optimize... Paul Ricard was never going to a good circuit for us with the straights... I am no expert though...

[Seerix]

Then what is causing the massive deficit? a magic invisible parachute out the back nobody can see? or is the Merc engine out back detuned by 100 horsepower?
Please clarify why Norris in the race was up to 2 seconds a lap slower than Max in France as i am very confused by what you are implying exactly if the strange driving traits of the chassis have "NOTHING" to do with it?

What do you mean? All teams besides RB and Ferrari have "strange driving traits"?
It's because the car has high drag/lower downforce, less effective aero... same as 7 other teams. If drivers would drive bad because the car is slower than top teams, they would not get far.

The weird car handling was kinda understandable last year, when also Carlos confirmed it drives differently. But with the huge rule change and completely different way cars produce downforce this year, it's hard to explain RIC struggling for another season (although he is doing better this year).

Unfortunately, for me McL is in similar state as during Honda days (not performance wise, but driver wise). I look forward to see what Norris can extract from the car and I just kinda accept when I see RIC out in Q2. It was similar when I was curious what Alo can do with that junk and Van was just invisible in the back. On the other hand, it was great being able to have 2 drivers achieve these good results with NOR/SAI.
RIC just does not provide these 'ups' when NOR puts in in p5/p6 in quali even though the car is certainly disappointing and slower then what I'd like it to be.

Ofcourse you have your own opinion and that's fine.

[Motörhead]

Also to clarify Ham won titles in a diva car? is this a joke?
Ham has only won titles in the fastest most dominant cars over a season that was quickest at most tracks.

I remember 2017 Wolf would not stop with all the diva talk as i never heard this word in F1 ever before that.

And then almost every race Bottas even would be qualifying 1 second a lap quicker than both Max and Ric.
Bottas finished 3rd in the chmapionship with 305 points that year and we know how slow Bottas is
Russell just jumped in the car in 2020 and had to wear smaller shoes and was about to win very easily before the issue. So Bottas is nowhere near top level.

Ric on 200 and Max 168 that year both demolished by Bottas
yep some Diva that 2017 car was! hahahaha

Hamilton aint winning a championship if he was driving this years Mclaren as that is what you insinuating. Russell has raced Norris and rates him very highly. Ham cannot even beat Russell in his own car and team he knows like the back of his hand for years and is behind Russell in points still. Throw him into this years strange driving Mclaren and he would be doing even worse than Ricciardo against Norris.

Finally someone that just doesn't look at the scoreboard and spout sack him nonsense every week like some of the ignorant folk in here and in the other forums. Yep Dan even said in a recent interview there is still DNA carryover from last year's car that retains some of those quirks. They need to continue to refine and move away from the concept that like you said is different to the norm and never going to be a race winning car.

As mentioned Dan never had this trouble in any other teams and Lando has only ever known the McLaren F1 quirky designs. You don't beat the likes of Verstappen and Vettel without having serious talent or lose that in a matter of months changing teams. At least McLaren seem to understand the long term goal now, about getting the car right. Firing Dan who actually has alot of experience in different teams including the successful RBR is not going to help. Finishing 4th or 5th is pretty much inconsequential in the grand scheme of things and they know it. The car design has to be the main goal and Dan knows a race winning car and how it should feel.

In a way these cost caps suck big time cos now if you get it wrong you can't just so everything at it moneywise as quick as you can to make amends. Just hope McLaren now have the direction right to engineer these quirks out if the car and get back to winning sooner rather than later.

Much appreciated good Sir Agree with everything you said!

Sadly, I have to agree with most of what you have said.
Now, if we look at the facts closely, McLaren have been out of touch Aero-wise Pretty much since Peter Prodromou came back to McLaren, this time without Adrian Newey.
I think it’s clear that his talents lack the vision of a Newey and he’s pretty ordinary in comparison.
His position of Director/Chief Aerodynamicist has to be looked at. As he’s simply not been delivering in his tenure at McLaren.
James Key is doing a great job and he has nothing to do with the Aerodynamic concept. He oversees everything but doesn’t get to decide in which direction McLaren’s aero concept points. That’s Prodromou’s responsibility.
He’s continually pointing McLaren in a different direction compared to the competition.
It’s not working.

[JordanMugen]

He’s continually pointing McLaren in a different direction compared to the competition.
It’s not working.

Bit harsh! IIRC the cape was a McLaren innovation which was then adopted by the whole grid.

[Motörhead]

He’s continually pointing McLaren in a different direction compared to the competition.
It’s not working.

Bit harsh! IIRC the cape was a McLaren innovation which was then adopted by the whole grid.

The cape is not an overall concept.
Each aerodynamicist has the scope to work within certain parameters. All the aerodynamicist’s are very talented, no doubt, and have leeway to work within a certain concept.
The concept is set by the the man driving the direction of Aerodynamic development.
And in this case, it’s the above mentioned.

[Mclarensenna]

Finally someone that just doesn't look at the scoreboard and spout sack him nonsense every week like some of the ignorant folk in here and in the other forums. Yep Dan even said in a recent interview there is still DNA carryover from last year's car that retains some of those quirks. They need to continue to refine and move away from the concept that like you said is different to the norm and never going to be a race winning car.

As mentioned Dan never had this trouble in any other teams and Lando has only ever known the McLaren F1 quirky designs. You don't beat the likes of Verstappen and Vettel without having serious talent or lose that in a matter of months changing teams. At least McLaren seem to understand the long term goal now, about getting the car right. Firing Dan who actually has alot of experience in different teams including the successful RBR is not going to help. Finishing 4th or 5th is pretty much inconsequential in the grand scheme of things and they know it. The car design has to be the main goal and Dan knows a race winning car and how it should feel.

In a way these cost caps suck big time cos now if you get it wrong you can't just so everything at it moneywise as quick as you can to make amends. Just hope McLaren now have the direction right to engineer these quirks out if the car and get back to winning sooner rather than later.

Much appreciated good Sir Agree with everything you said!

Sadly, I have to agree with most of what you have said.
Now, if we look at the facts closely, McLaren have been out of touch Aero-wise Pretty much since Peter Prodromou came back to McLaren, this time without Adrian Newey.
I think it’s clear that his talents lack the vision of a Newey and he’s pretty ordinary in comparison.
His position of Director/Chief Aerodynamicist has to be looked at. As he’s simply not been delivering in his tenure at McLaren.
James Key is doing a great job and he has nothing to do with the Aerodynamic concept. He oversees everything but doesn’t get to decide in which direction McLaren’s aero concept points. That’s Prodromou’s responsibility.
He’s continually pointing McLaren in a different direction compared to the competition.
It’s not working.

well said. Prodromou was just Neweys sidekick and is quite frankly useless IMHO based on what we have seen from Mclaren the past 7 years. He moved back to Mclaren in 2015 and even with the huge budget of Mclaren somehow helped created a parachute of a car which was finally exposed by switching to the renault engine.

Newey is just so good people think bringing his number 2 previously Prodromou and now Fallows is some secret to success. Like neweys Genius will somehow rob off on them.
i remember a few years back Newey stepped back and Fallows was in charge and the car kept going backwards. Then Newey was back on the scene and the car started getting faster again and helmet made quite a few comments about Newey and praising him. Its night and day difference basically.
You can work under Newey for 100 years but you cannot innovate and design cars at his level. The man is a true genius!

[mwillems]

Just to try and add some direction to this conversation, who would you all bring in to replace our design staff?

I was saying fir a while and indeed before this race that we have to not be sentimental and look to improve staffing at all levels when we have the chance.

But I don't think Zak wouldn't be doing that, he will 100% move to change staff at the right opportunity.

In fact the only reason I said it was because this Firum focused intently on the Wind Tunnel and sim as being the magic fix. My intention was to point out that the team can be improved too and that the people are in part culpable.

But this conversation seems to be suggesting our design staff are totally useless.

Is this not just another far extreme that ignores facts about the tooling and the sporting decisions that impact choices that designers can make??

How much say did Zak have in sticking with the MCL35M too long? Would this year have been better if we'd swapped earlier? Fire Zak??!

It just seems that there is an inability to look at things in a balanced way.

Everything can always be improved, including staffing but also tooling, sporting and business decisions, structure.....

The team is improving things and so.e changes would be good in staffing... if the right people become available at the right time.