2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[mclaren111]

Much appreciated good Sir Agree with everything you said!

Sadly, I have to agree with most of what you have said.
Now, if we look at the facts closely, McLaren have been out of touch Aero-wise Pretty much since Peter Prodromou came back to McLaren, this time without Adrian Newey.
I think it’s clear that his talents lack the vision of a Newey and he’s pretty ordinary in comparison.
His position of Director/Chief Aerodynamicist has to be looked at. As he’s simply not been delivering in his tenure at McLaren.
James Key is doing a great job and he has nothing to do with the Aerodynamic concept. He oversees everything but doesn’t get to decide in which direction McLaren’s aero concept points. That’s Prodromou’s responsibility.
He’s continually pointing McLaren in a different direction compared to the competition.
It’s not working.

well said. Prodromou was just Neweys sidekick and is quite frankly useless IMHO based on what we have seen from Mclaren the past 7 years. He moved back to Mclaren in 2015 and even with the huge budget of Mclaren somehow helped created a parachute of a car which was finally exposed by switching to the renault engine.

Newey is just so good people think bringing his number 2 previously Prodromou and now Fallows is some secret to success. Like neweys Genius will somehow rob off on them.
i remember a few years back Newey stepped back and Fallows was in charge and the car kept going backwards. Then Newey was back on the scene and the car started getting faster again and helmet made quite a few comments about Newey and praising him. Its night and day difference basically.
You can work under Newey for 100 years but you cannot innovate and design cars at his level. The man is a true genius!

Agree... I was a Peter Prod fan... No more... Sadly Peter Prod has only produced mediocre cars...

[ScottR267]

Just to try and add some direction to this conversation, who would you all bring in to replace our design staff?

I was saying fir a while and indeed before this race that we have to not be sentimental and look to improve staffing at all levels when we have the chance.

But I don't think Zak wouldn't be doing that, he will 100% move to change staff at the right opportunity.

In fact the only reason I said it was because this Firum focused intently on the Wind Tunnel and sim as being the magic fix. My intention was to point out that the team can be improved too and that the people are in part culpable.

But this conversation seems to be suggesting our design staff are totally useless.

Is this not just another far extreme that ignores facts about the tooling and the sporting decisions that impact choices that designers can make??

How much say did Zak have in sticking with the MCL35M too long? Would this year have been better if we'd swapped earlier? Fire Zak??!

It just seems that there is an inability to look at things in a balanced way.

Everything can always be improved, including staffing but also tooling, sporting and business decisions, structure.....

The team is improving things and so.e changes would be good in staffing... if the right people become available at the right time.

Long gone off the days whereby we knew a lot of the top engineers at McLaren!

I raised this before who should we try and go for but not sure who is available or who would want to come aboard as lot of other teams have money to throw at the top engineers.

That’s what I think Mercedes’ did well at from their return to 2016ish….when top engineers come available they swept them up! Appreciate now it’s not as easy as that with the cost cap however can never have too much knowledge!

[JPower]

<-----read that carefully. Norris admits clear as day he never drove a car like this before. Its got a very unique 1 off style all to its own. Sainz said the same thing.
Mclaren will never ever ever ever win a championship ever in F1 if they keep this strange driving trait.
The car will be inconsistant and gain podiums and a lucky win but never come close to a championship
Whether Ric leaves or not and Norris stays for another decade is not the issue.
As a Mclaren fan you want a car that drives like a regular race car. Only then does Mclaren have a chance to win a championship.

Also to say Ric cannot adapt is quite frankly nonsense.
he adapted to 4 different F1 cars.
Beat Max the 1st 2 years, in the 3rd was ahead of Max at the halfway mark with 2 wins but lost out due to 8 retirements not his fault vs 2 max had not his fault.
Redbull every week almost bring updates, car is constantly changing and drivers need to adapt.
Ric proved he can adapt and race with the best of them which most agree Max is clearly the best in F1
Ric adapted and beat Hulk which Sainz couldnt do. Ric has 10 years proving he can adapt in F1. The proof is there.

Again, every car has certain different attributes. Just because the McLaren’s are unique and DR can’t access them to its 100%, doesn’t mean the car is fundamentally flawed as Alonso, Norris, and Sainz have been able to do so. And no, that still doesn’t prove the McLaren is a unicorn racecar. Lando has not driven every car in existence.

As for Ricciardo adapting to the Renault, the RS19/20 still fit his driving style as they had strong front ends and a similar balance to his previous Red Bulls. Arguably, from 2014-2020 he drove cars that all had similar balance.

Sainz has also commented on how the Renault and Ferraris he’s driven have been “pointy” and also require a particular style. Every Ferrari from the 2019 SF90 to today’s F1-75 has been prone to oversteer and sometimes uncontrollable in transient movements. Every car requires work to adapt from the pilot and engineering team.

Again, you’re absolving Ricciardo from the work he needs to do as well.

[Mclarensenna]

<-----read that carefully. Norris admits clear as day he never drove a car like this before. Its got a very unique 1 off style all to its own. Sainz said the same thing.
Mclaren will never ever ever ever win a championship ever in F1 if they keep this strange driving trait.
The car will be inconsistant and gain podiums and a lucky win but never come close to a championship
Whether Ric leaves or not and Norris stays for another decade is not the issue.
As a Mclaren fan you want a car that drives like a regular race car. Only then does Mclaren have a chance to win a championship.

Also to say Ric cannot adapt is quite frankly nonsense.
he adapted to 4 different F1 cars.
Beat Max the 1st 2 years, in the 3rd was ahead of Max at the halfway mark with 2 wins but lost out due to 8 retirements not his fault vs 2 max had not his fault.
Redbull every week almost bring updates, car is constantly changing and drivers need to adapt.
Ric proved he can adapt and race with the best of them which most agree Max is clearly the best in F1
Ric adapted and beat Hulk which Sainz couldnt do. Ric has 10 years proving he can adapt in F1. The proof is there.

Again, every car has certain different attributes. Just because the McLaren’s are unique and DR can’t access them to its 100%, doesn’t mean the car is fundamentally flawed as Alonso, Norris, and Sainz have been able to do so. And no, that still doesn’t prove the McLaren is a unicorn racecar. Lando has not driven every car in existence.

As for Ricciardo adapting to the Renault, the RS19/20 still fit his driving style as they had strong front ends and a similar balance to his previous Red Bulls. Arguably, from 2014-2020 he drove cars that all had similar balance.

Sainz has also commented on how the Renault and Ferraris he’s driven have been “pointy” and also require a particular style. Every Ferrari from the 2019 SF90 to today’s F1-75 has been prone to oversteer and sometimes uncontrollable in transient movements. Every car requires work to adapt from the pilot and engineering team.

Again, you’re absolving Ricciardo from the work he needs to do as well.

Sainz called it a 1 off strange car. . Ric also said it, and he has driven for 4 different teams f1. Ric do not forget drove the 2009, 2010 and 2013 young drivers test and was struggling to fit due to his wide hips and still was smashing lap records.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car

Norris himself called it a unicorn 1 off car basically here also. Sorry but i will take Norris statements alot more seriously than people who have never driven the Mclaren f1 car.

I am not absolving Ric as i made my point clear in previous posts. Ric coming last every race benefits Mclaren as they get more wind tunnel/CFD time. Mclaren benefits next year from this.

Mclaren will never win a championship with a unicron car like this. Norris was 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap slower than Max i pasted the lap time chart above. Ric was a tenth slower than Norris. Norris nor Ric have work to do. Ric was 1 tenth off. What could Ric have done? find 2 tenths and be quicker than Norris?
Then what? celebrate Ric is now 1.3 - 1.8 seconds slower than Max?



Mclaren will never ever ever win a championship with a unicron car with strange driving traits. 1.5 to 2 seconds Norris being so far off the race pace proves it.
I said this repeatedly last year. Mclaren needs to remove the strange driving traits in 2022 or they will be nowhere again. Many here argued i was wrong and they should stick to this unicron trait and focus on Norris and not on what Ric wants.

Well here you are Norris 1.5 - 2 seconds off the pace in France.
And still many insist Ric needs need to change not Mclaren.
Its like groundhog day sometimes in this forum!

[JPower]

Sainz called it a 1 off strange car. . Ric also said it, and he has driven for 4 different teams f1. Ric do not forget drove the 2009, 2010 and 2013 young drivers test and was struggling to fit due to his wide hips and still was smashing lap records.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car

Norris himself called it a unicron 1 off car basically here also. Sorry but i will take Norris statements alot more seriously than people who have never driven the Mclaren f1 car.

He didn't call it a "one off" car. He said the car had unique characteristics. He said the same about this year's Ferrari as well.

Regardless of it having those characteristics or not, its on the responsibility of the driver and their setup engineers to get the most out of the car.

Norris and Sainz managed to make the McLaren's strengths and weaknesses work for them. If Ricciardo can't do the same, I don't think that's the fault of the car. Some drivers just can't wrap their heads around certain car characteristics. Ricciardo, over the past 35 races or so, has had trouble doing that.

[Mclarensenna]

Sainz called it a 1 off strange car. . Ric also said it, and he has driven for 4 different teams f1. Ric do not forget drove the 2009, 2010 and 2013 young drivers test and was struggling to fit due to his wide hips and still was smashing lap records.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car

Norris himself called it a unicron 1 off car basically here also. Sorry but i will take Norris statements alot more seriously than people who have never driven the Mclaren f1 car.

He didn't call it a "one off" car. He said the car had unique characteristics. He said the same about this year's Ferrari as well.

Regardless of it having those characteristics or not, its on the responsibility of the driver and their setup engineers to get the most out of the car.

Norris and Sainz managed to make the McLaren's strengths and weaknesses work for them. If Ricciardo can't do the same, I don't think that's the fault of the car. Some drivers just can't wrap their heads around certain car characteristics. Ricciardo, over the past 35 races or so, has had trouble doing that.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car

""I can understand on some points," Norris said when asked if he could relate to Ricciardo's struggles. "Because I do feel like it's a difficult car to drive, our car.

"I think like our characteristics we've also had over the past few years, and even Carlos [Sainz] said it, they're quite specific and unique.

"So some of the driving styles you need are not ones you kind of grow up learning, and therefore you have to adapt quite a bit."

<------ You are downplaying how unique the Mclaren is to drive. Norris and Sainz and Ric have repeatedly said it has unique traits never seen on any race car they have driven before.
This makes it a unicorn when that rare they have never been seen before.
hence the term "unicorn"
You can argue all you like and repeat the same thing over and over again but sorry i will ALWAYS take the word of Norris over posters here who have never driven the Mclaren F1 car.

[continuum16]

Just to try and add some direction to this conversation, who would you all bring in to replace our design staff?
[...]

I don't know about replace, but honestly I would have given a look to Simone Resta, who was at Ferrari forever, but only was Chief Designer/TD from 2015-2018. He went to Alfa/Sauber and they improved (at least in terms of pace, if not position) in 2019 and then left after less than a year and went on gardening leave before returning to Ferrari/Haas, who also improved with zero budget compared to the rest of the field. Also the cars designed under him always seem to have a good balance, something McLaren clearly do not have at the moment.

If nothing else, his cars seem to have some novel ideas (think 2017 Ferrari). I know there seems to be a clear "Italian engineer stays at Italian team" thing going on, not uncommon with Ferrari personnel, but as far as actually poachable people go, I don't know who else would be on the table. Aston Martin have clearly gone for the staff-stealing approach, and their results have gotten steadily worse for two years. (I don't think that's the reason, but what I'm saying is it's not a cure-all solution).

At the end of the day if the personnel are not maximized I feel that falls more on Seidl than Brown; I was always of the opinion that Zak provides the ingredients while Seidl is the chef. If that makes any sense. Now I guess Brown put a lot of the personnel there (Key at least, along with Seidl, although I don't know of that many more) but since Andreas has arrived the personnel reshuffle has been fairly stagnant, for better or for worse.

[JPower]

<------ You are downplaying how unique the Mclaren is to drive. Norris and Sainz and Ric have repeatedly said it has unique traits never seen on any race car they have driven before.
This makes it a unicorn when that rare they have never been seen before.
hence the term "unicorn"
You can argue all you like and repeat the same thing over and over again but sorry i will ALWAYS take the word of Norris over posters here who have never driven the Mclaren F1 car.

You keep sending that article. I read when it came out. Doesn't change anything.

Also, no one said specifically said "never seen".

Regardless of these traits its up to the driver to get the most out of the car.

Its obvious Ricciardo hasn't figured out how to do that. That's the main issue for this season and for Ricciardo's career in general.

[continuum16]

Sainz called it a 1 off strange car. . Ric also said it, and he has driven for 4 different teams f1. Ric do not forget drove the 2009, 2010 and 2013 young drivers test and was struggling to fit due to his wide hips and still was smashing lap records.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car

Norris himself called it a unicron 1 off car basically here also. Sorry but i will take Norris statements alot more seriously than people who have never driven the Mclaren f1 car.

He didn't call it a "one off" car. He said the car had unique characteristics. He said the same about this year's Ferrari as well.

Regardless of it having those characteristics or not, its on the responsibility of the driver and their setup engineers to get the most out of the car.

Norris and Sainz managed to make the McLaren's strengths and weaknesses work for them. If Ricciardo can't do the same, I don't think that's the fault of the car. Some drivers just can't wrap their heads around certain car characteristics. Ricciardo, over the past 35 races or so, has had trouble doing that.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car

""I can understand on some points," Norris said when asked if he could relate to Ricciardo's struggles. "Because I do feel like it's a difficult car to drive, our car.

"I think like our characteristics we've also had over the past few years, and even Carlos [Sainz] said it, they're quite specific and unique.

"So some of the driving styles you need are not ones you kind of grow up learning, and therefore you have to adapt quite a bit."

<------ You are downplaying how unique the Mclaren is to drive. Norris and Sainz and Ric have repeatedly said it has unique traits never seen on any race car they have driven before.
This makes it a unicorn when that rare they have never been seen before.
hence the term "unicorn"
You can argue all you like and repeat the same thing over and over again but sorry i will ALWAYS take the word of Norris over posters here who have never driven the Mclaren F1 car.

I get your point but also what other F1 cars has Norris driven besides the McLaren? I would take the word of Sainz and Ricciardo over Lando because I'm pretty sure Lando has never driven another team's car. But that's a semantics argument. In general I would trust the words of drivers over us here

[Ben1980]

<-----read that carefully. Norris admits clear as day he never drove a car like this before. Its got a very unique 1 off style all to its own. Sainz said the same thing.
Mclaren will never ever ever ever win a championship ever in F1 if they keep this strange driving trait.
The car will be inconsistant and gain podiums and a lucky win but never come close to a championship
Whether Ric leaves or not and Norris stays for another decade is not the issue.
As a Mclaren fan you want a car that drives like a regular race car. Only then does Mclaren have a chance to win a championship.

Also to say Ric cannot adapt is quite frankly nonsense.
he adapted to 4 different F1 cars.
Beat Max the 1st 2 years, in the 3rd was ahead of Max at the halfway mark with 2 wins but lost out due to 8 retirements not his fault vs 2 max had not his fault.
Redbull every week almost bring updates, car is constantly changing and drivers need to adapt.
Ric proved he can adapt and race with the best of them which most agree Max is clearly the best in F1
Ric adapted and beat Hulk which Sainz couldnt do. Ric has 10 years proving he can adapt in F1. The proof is there.

Again, every car has certain different attributes. Just because the McLaren’s are unique and DR can’t access them to its 100%, doesn’t mean the car is fundamentally flawed as Alonso, Norris, and Sainz have been able to do so. And no, that still doesn’t prove the McLaren is a unicorn racecar. Lando has not driven every car in existence.

As for Ricciardo adapting to the Renault, the RS19/20 still fit his driving style as they had strong front ends and a similar balance to his previous Red Bulls. Arguably, from 2014-2020 he drove cars that all had similar balance.

Sainz has also commented on how the Renault and Ferraris he’s driven have been “pointy” and also require a particular style. Every Ferrari from the 2019 SF90 to today’s F1-75 has been prone to oversteer and sometimes uncontrollable in transient movements. Every car requires work to adapt from the pilot and engineering team.

Again, you’re absolving Ricciardo from the work he needs to do as well.

Sainz called it a 1 off strange car. . Ric also said it, and he has driven for 4 different teams f1. Ric do not forget drove the 2009, 2010 and 2013 young drivers test and was struggling to fit due to his wide hips and still was smashing lap records.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car

Norris himself called it a unicorn 1 off car basically here also. Sorry but i will take Norris statements alot more seriously than people who have never driven the Mclaren f1 car.

I am not absolving Ric as i made my point clear in previous posts. Ric coming last every race benefits Mclaren as they get more wind tunnel/CFD time. Mclaren benefits next year from this.

Mclaren will never win a championship with a unicron car like this. Norris was 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap slower than Max i pasted the lap time chart above. Ric was a tenth slower than Norris. Norris nor Ric have work to do. Ric was 1 tenth off. What could Ric have done? find 2 tenths and be quicker than Norris?
Then what? celebrate Ric is now 1.3 - 1.8 seconds slower than Max?



Mclaren will never ever ever win a championship with a unicron car with strange driving traits. 1.5 to 2 seconds Norris being so far off the race pace proves it.
I said this repeatedly last year. Mclaren needs to remove the strange driving traits in 2022 or they will be nowhere again. Many here argued i was wrong and they should stick to this unicron trait and focus on Norris and not on what Ric wants.

Well here you are Norris 1.5 - 2 seconds off the pace in France.
And still many insist Ric needs need to change not Mclaren.
Its like groundhog day sometimes in this forum!

Seems pretty obvious that they won't win the championship with a car 1.5secs slower than the others.

I'm sure they are trying to design a car that isn't, but so are all the teams on the grid.

And all this stuff about the car being difficult is just nonsense. As things stand it looks a much better drive then half the other cars!

[Mclarensenna]

<------ You are downplaying how unique the Mclaren is to drive. Norris and Sainz and Ric have repeatedly said it has unique traits never seen on any race car they have driven before.
This makes it a unicorn when that rare they have never been seen before.
hence the term "unicorn"
You can argue all you like and repeat the same thing over and over again but sorry i will ALWAYS take the word of Norris over posters here who have never driven the Mclaren F1 car.

You keep sending that article. I read when it came out. Doesn't change anything.

Also, no one said specifically said "never seen".

Regardless of these traits its up to the driver to get the most out of the car.

Its obvious Ricciardo hasn't figured out how to do that. That's the main issue for this season and for Ricciardo's career in general.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... t%20Coover

"Definition of unique 1 : being the only one"

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car
"I think like our characteristics we've also had over the past few years, and even Carlos [Sainz] said it, they're quite specific and unique.

So yes, Norris said unique which means 1 off. Sainz said it also.
Sorry but i think i will take the word of Sainz and Norris over posters here who have never driven the Mclaren F1 before.

[JPower]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... t%20Coover

"Definition of unique 1 : being the only one"

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car
"I think like our characteristics we've also had over the past few years, and even Carlos [Sainz] said it, they're quite specific and unique.


So yes, Norris said unique which means 1 off. Sainz said it also.
Sorry but i think i will take the word of Sainz and Norris over posters here who have never driven the Mclaren F1 before.

You're arguing semantics.

The point is, Ricciardo hasn't been able to bring 100% out of McLaren's base characteristics unlike Norris and Sainz.

That's on him.

[Ben1980]

I'm honestly astounded how much weight you are putting on a Lando Norris puff piece, where he is basically saying how good he is, because he was able to drive well last season while also driving well a car with new characteristics.

It's basically Lando saying he understands why Daniel isn't as good as him.

[Mclarensenna]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... t%20Coover

"Definition of unique 1 : being the only one"

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/norri ... 0our%20car
"I think like our characteristics we've also had over the past few years, and even Carlos [Sainz] said it, they're quite specific and unique.


So yes, Norris said unique which means 1 off. Sainz said it also.
Sorry but i think i will take the word of Sainz and Norris over posters here who have never driven the Mclaren F1 before.

You're arguing semantics.

The point is, Ricciardo hasn't been able to bring 100% out of McLaren's base characteristics unlike Norris and Sainz.

That's on him.

You stated this to my previous post i will paste your exact quote below

"He didn't call it a "one off" car." <----- Sorry but that is your semantic reply not mine.

Norris and Sainz both clearly did call it a 1 off car as they used the word unique which does mean one off according to the dictionary.

[Mclarensenna]

I'm honestly astounded how much weight you are putting on a Lando Norris puff piece, where he is basically saying how good he is, because he was able to drive well last season while also driving well a car with new characteristics.

It's basically Lando saying he understands why Daniel isn't as good as him.

Norris said these exact words and yes i put a lot of weight on them as you so eloquently put it.
You are entitled to put zero weight on his words sure. heck you can even claim every word he said is a lie and write your own Norris article. To each his own and more power to you