2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[NiyolHuayra]

Late to the party But as I said before RIC is the problem here... We are losing P4 solely because of RIC, Lando can only do so much while both Ocon and Alonso are at this point playing with Daniel... I mean, i understood that last year he had to adapt to the car. Bu this year it was a blank slate for both drivers. He is the problem! I feel for him but at this point I am getting angry just watching him getting passed by every driver on the field... He has to go IMHO, McLaren has plenty of talent in the USA, and I think that Alpine would let Piastri drive... Sad but true...

[runningmanz]

Yes, they very clearly do!

They may not be included in the budget cap, but neither is the CAPEX for building a new wind tunnel or the lease on the MTC.

Every cent they waste on Daniel, could be spent on improving facilities even further.

McLaren have a finite amount of money from sponsors, winnings and investments.
Once they subtract the amount allowed by the budget cap from that, they can use the rest on system upgrades, new technology but also drivers and investments

https://www.planetf1.com/news/andreas-s ... udget-cap/

Sorry but you are incorrect, every cent they are spending on Ricciardos salary is not being taken away from "system upgrades" and "new technologies" when Mclaren are not just over budget but considerably according to the article pasted above.

The fact they were at risk of running over the budget cap (before it was raised) doesn't mean they have unlimited funds to do everything they want to do. This is a team which was in serious trouble just 2 years ago and had to undergo some major changes to simply survive during covid (and even before that).

We simply don't have a load of money stuffed down the back of the sofa for infrastructure improvements. If we weren't paying upwards of £12m per year for Daniel, that would be, say, £7m to pay for a less expensive driver and £5m per year to spend on infrastructure improvements. I'm not advocating sacking Daniel (I don't think that would achieve much in the grand scheme of things and with the potential available replacements currently) but freeing up funds is a valid arguement in my opinion.

Your seriously undervaluing Dan's worth to the team. He brings alot to the team off the track as well in regards to popularity, team dynamic and global exposure particularly after DTS in addition to his wealth of F1 experience in various teams, race winning pedigree and proven high performance ceiling which many other drivers esp rookies, cheaper etc don't have. It's part of the reasons why RBR and Renault desperately wanted to keep him.

[Mclarensenna]

£15 budget cap £18 overspend £100 in the bank and £2 to spend... Seriously what sort of made Maths is this?

Well you don't seem to respond reasonably to words so I thought I'd put it into some numbers you might understand. It clearly didn't work so I suggest we move on.

Mclaren is over budget already and want to spend even more money and go even more over budget.
The facts are 100% clear on this. So claiming Rics salary is impeding Mclarens budget to spend on "system upgrades,"new technology" "facilities" and other claims the original poster made is 100% completely false.

I have moved on twice from this but you then replied with the funniest maths i ever seen so thanks for the laugh its good to see some people have a sense of humor

[Big Tea]

The part of keeping Dan that concerns me is that he may soon decide it is a lost cause and move on. This would leave a hole in Mclaren as they could have used next year to develop a long term driver while the car is at a low instead of going into a 'good' year with a new driver.
It could be Dan will come good, in which case all is well, but we will not know until that time.

He is not going to stay there if the car is not to his liking no matter how much he is offered.

[mwillems]

1. You replied to me saying there was hefty prize money at stake. Previously it was 3 million pounds, hardly hefty IMHO. Now you speculating this year will be more ie hefty again? how much more? 5 million pounds?
Hardly hefty in the grand scheme of things so I politely completely disagree with your hefty statement no matter how you spin it.

2. You also claim extra CFD and wind tunnel time is not worth a 3 million pounds or more possibly sacrifice. Again i completely disagree due to how far off the pace Norris was from Max in France. 1.5 - 2 seconds off the pace is dire critical! Half a second off the pace is dire. 2 seconds there should be flashing warning sirens at the Mclaren factory. It is beyond dire. I cannot understand how any Mclaren fan would not think it is absolutely dire critical to gain every extra wind tunnel and CFD time to turn this car around. 2 seconds off the pace is a joke for a team like Mclaren. And this is Lando;s lap time compared to Max who is definately more on top of this driving style than Ric is.
https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2022/gp/s9028 ... s/821-842/

3. " In addition, from a longevity stand point, I would focus on Norris and make sure that whichever car is developed suits him, since ultimately he is the foreseeable future of the Team… " <----- I said last year to the countless posters who said they should 100% fully focus next years car on Lando's driving style and not Ric's would be a disaster. I argued Ric has driven the redbull and knows how a fast F1 car should behave so it is competetive on most tracks. Lando does not have this experience as he never driven anything bar this unique Mclaren.

i said very clearly if they focus on Lando's preference over Rics then next years car will be a turtle. Everybody argued and many disagreed but its evident who was right and who was wrong now.
Lando was a MASSIVE 1.5-2 seconds off the race pace in France. This year is the proof.
This is the result of focusing on landos style for this year. The proof is here right in front of you.
The proof is below clear as day. Reality as they call it!
https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2022/gp/s9028 ... s/821-842/

Yet quite a few and you yourself somehow keep wishing for the same thing next year when already we saw the result this year and how wrong this approach is???
No worries wish for the same thing next year you are entitled to wish for whatever you want. As Eisntein said insanity is doing the exact same thing but expecting a different result!

Prize money will be much smaller than the difference in sponsor bonus. Its easily conceivable that 3rd over 4th might give an extra 10m in bonus. Now that 13m cumulative figure is not to be sniffed at.

Mclaren though unfortunately has no shot at 3rd this year. 4th is the maximum i would realistically say. Redbull, Ferrari and Merc seem just too strong. i dont see Mclaren overhauling the works Mercedes team this year.

It's a case of ignore the numbers to see the principle. I don't know what the bonus is, but the idea that the only financial difference from the constructors is in prize money misrepresents the situation. Perhaps there are actually penalties for finishing 5th in the constructors and lose out on several more million? Who knows, but there is more financially at stake than a few million in prize money.

[mwillems]

The part of keeping Dan that concerns me is that he may soon decide it is a lost cause and move on. This would leave a hole in Mclaren as they could have used next year to develop a long term driver while the car is at a low instead of going into a 'good' year with a new driver.
It could be Dan will come good, in which case all is well, but we will not know until that time.

He is not going to stay there if the car is not to his liking no matter how much he is offered.

But what would make the car to his liking?

Having the car suit his driving style but Lando still repeatedly finishes ahead in Q and R?
The car still feels awkward and not natural but he is able to regularly beat Lando?

I suspect feeling comfortable with the car really means having a handle on his teammate and I don't think it is going to happen, but who knows, it can all change.

[Big Tea]

The part of keeping Dan that concerns me is that he may soon decide it is a lost cause and move on. This would leave a hole in Mclaren as they could have used next year to develop a long term driver while the car is at a low instead of going into a 'good' year with a new driver.
It could be Dan will come good, in which case all is well, but we will not know until that time.

He is not going to stay there if the car is not to his liking no matter how much he is offered.

But what would make the car to his liking?

Having the car suit his driving style but Lando still repeatedly finishes ahead in Q and R?
The car still feels awkward and not natural but he is able to regularly beat Lando?

I suspect feeling comfortable with the car really means having a handle on his teammate and I don't think it is going to happen, but who knows, it can all change.

I tried to avoid saying make the car to his liking, that seems to be a tin of worms.

[mwillems]

Yes, they very clearly do!

They may not be included in the budget cap, but neither is the CAPEX for building a new wind tunnel or the lease on the MTC.

Every cent they waste on Daniel, could be spent on improving facilities even further.

McLaren have a finite amount of money from sponsors, winnings and investments.
Once they subtract the amount allowed by the budget cap from that, they can use the rest on system upgrades, new technology but also drivers and investments

https://www.planetf1.com/news/andreas-s ... udget-cap/

Sorry but you are incorrect, every cent they are spending on Ricciardos salary is not being taken away from "system upgrades" and "new technologies" when Mclaren are not just over budget but considerably according to the article pasted above.

The fact they were at risk of running over the budget cap (before it was raised) doesn't mean they have unlimited funds to do everything they want to do. This is a team which was in serious trouble just 2 years ago and had to undergo some major changes to simply survive during covid (and even before that).

We simply don't have a load of money stuffed down the back of the sofa for infrastructure improvements. If we weren't paying upwards of £12m per year for Daniel, that would be, say, £7m to pay for a less expensive driver and £5m per year to spend on infrastructure improvements. I'm not advocating sacking Daniel (I don't think that would achieve much in the grand scheme of things and with the potential available replacements currently) but freeing up funds is a valid arguement in my opinion.

He has a contract, perhaps to sack him would mean paying the remainder and wouldn't free up funds at all? Maybe there is a clause to guarantee a race seat at Mclaren for the term of his contract.

I think if the team had a way forward to replace Daniel, that made financial sense and involved a driver they were confident could at least match his results and go on to exceed, then yes, it would be a valid argument. But everything has to be done in the right way.

You don't want to become red bull where a young driver feels so much pressure to perform that they choke.

[mwillems]

The part of keeping Dan that concerns me is that he may soon decide it is a lost cause and move on. This would leave a hole in Mclaren as they could have used next year to develop a long term driver while the car is at a low instead of going into a 'good' year with a new driver.
It could be Dan will come good, in which case all is well, but we will not know until that time.

He is not going to stay there if the car is not to his liking no matter how much he is offered.

But what would make the car to his liking?

Having the car suit his driving style but Lando still repeatedly finishes ahead in Q and R?
The car still feels awkward and not natural but he is able to regularly beat Lando?

I suspect feeling comfortable with the car really means having a handle on his teammate and I don't think it is going to happen, but who knows, it can all change.

I tried to avoid saying make the car to his liking, that seems to be a tin of worms.

It does but to be honest I just think the car is a convenient substitute for Lando. I think the car could feel difficult but if he was finishing ahead of Lando then it perhaps wouldn't feel quite so difficult to him, if that makes sense.

[runningmanz]

The part of keeping Dan that concerns me is that he may soon decide it is a lost cause and move on. This would leave a hole in Mclaren as they could have used next year to develop a long term driver while the car is at a low instead of going into a 'good' year with a new driver.
It could be Dan will come good, in which case all is well, but we will not know until that time.

He is not going to stay there if the car is not to his liking no matter how much he is offered.

I don't really see that and certainly not before end of 2023 anyway but really he said he was committed and could see himself sticking with McLaren until he finishes in F1. I think they are all fully committed to making it work as long as it takes at least in this current contract if not beyond depending on how good the car is and his performances next year. Besides it's not like the last 5 out of 6 races he has been far off Lando bar Britain where he also had DRS failure and a shoddy race strategy to muddy the waters.

Lando and Dan have said they want the same things in the car. Dan knows what a good well balanced car feels like as well so they will keep working towards that and away from the previously failed design philosphies of the previous McLarens. Like many have said the McLarens are the only cars he has ever had this much trouble with. Seidl has mentioned more than once they haven't given either driver the car they deserve and Zak recently again said Dan will win more races for McLaren if they give him the right car.

Theres a good chance imo they work most if not all of these quirks out of the current design (which as Dan stated still has carryover from 2021) by sometime next year and he is back to performing like he was in the Renault and RBR. Thats the goal that Key seems to have mentioned in previous chats recently about having a much better balanced and easier car to drive and will benefit Lando as well given again they are asking for the same things in the car.

[Mclarensenna]

Prize money will be much smaller than the difference in sponsor bonus. Its easily conceivable that 3rd over 4th might give an extra 10m in bonus. Now that 13m cumulative figure is not to be sniffed at.

Mclaren though unfortunately has no shot at 3rd this year. 4th is the maximum i would realistically say. Redbull, Ferrari and Merc seem just too strong. i dont see Mclaren overhauling the works Mercedes team this year.

It's a case of ignore the numbers to see the principle. I don't know what the bonus is, but the idea that the only financial difference from the constructors is in prize money misrepresents the situation. Perhaps there are actually penalties for finishing 5th in the constructors and lose out on several more million? Who knows, but there is more financially at stake than a few million in prize money.

1. " I don't know what the bonus is"
2. "Perhaps there are actually penalties for finishing 5th in the constructors and lose out on several more million?"
3. "Who knows, but there is more financially at stake than a few million in prize money."

<---- if i can kindly request to Please try not to reply to me if you don't know and just guessing and speculating in the future please.

[mwillems]

Mclaren though unfortunately has no shot at 3rd this year. 4th is the maximum i would realistically say. Redbull, Ferrari and Merc seem just too strong. i dont see Mclaren overhauling the works Mercedes team this year.

It's a case of ignore the numbers to see the principle. I don't know what the bonus is, but the idea that the only financial difference from the constructors is in prize money misrepresents the situation. Perhaps there are actually penalties for finishing 5th in the constructors and lose out on several more million? Who knows, but there is more financially at stake than a few million in prize money.

1. " I don't know what the bonus is"
2. "Perhaps there are actually penalties for finishing 5th in the constructors and lose out on several more million?"
3. "Who knows, but there is more financially at stake than a few million in prize money."

<---- if i can kindly request to Please try not to reply to me if you don't know and just guessing and speculating in the future please.

That was my point to you, just in a much more polite way. Stop saying what the financial repercussions are of finishing in a particular spot if you don't know because you clearly don't.

[SmallSoldier]

In an effort to go back to discussing technical aspects on this forum… Below you will find a chart showing the percentage of time under full throttle by the different teams during Qualifyiing in France, from the chart we can infer who has more traction coming out of the corners, since the sooner you get on the throttle the loner you would be under WOT.

Even though is clear that McLaren still suffers from drag compared to the competition, it isn’t the only factor affecting their top speed and lack of pace… Traction out of the corners seem to be an important component and something that the team is probably trying to address… On the other hand, we could also assume that the car has very good cornering speed, since it would be in the off-throttle sections were it makes the most amount of time compared to the likes of Alpine for example (who Lando outqualified) since not only was Alonso more time under WOT, but also with higher top speed in the speed traps (with the exception of Intermediate 2)

Hopefully this is a good sign for Hungary, where the time of throttle is larger than in France



Via: @F1DataAnalysis

[Mclarensenna]

It's a case of ignore the numbers to see the principle. I don't know what the bonus is, but the idea that the only financial difference from the constructors is in prize money misrepresents the situation. Perhaps there are actually penalties for finishing 5th in the constructors and lose out on several more million? Who knows, but there is more financially at stake than a few million in prize money.

1. " I don't know what the bonus is"
2. "Perhaps there are actually penalties for finishing 5th in the constructors and lose out on several more million?"
3. "Who knows, but there is more financially at stake than a few million in prize money."

<---- if i can kindly request to Please try not to reply to me if you don't know and just guessing and speculating in the future please.

That was my point to you, just in a much more polite way. Stop saying what the financial repercussions are of finishing in a particular spot if you don't know because you clearly don't.

I literally googled and pasted the best link i could find which you replied to me about which said it was 3 million pounds difference between 4th and 5th.
Compare that to pure speculation you pasted below with no links or proof anywhere to be seen

1. " I don't know what the bonus is"
2. "Perhaps there are actually penalties for finishing 5th in the constructors and lose out on several more million?"
3. "Who knows, but there is more financially at stake than a few million in prize money."

I will re request kindly Please try not to reply to me if you don't know and just guessing and speculating in the future please.

[Stig14]

In an effort to go back to discussing technical aspects on this forum… Below you will find a chart showing the percentage of time under full throttle by the different teams during Qualifyiing in France, from the chart we can infer who has more traction coming out of the corners, since the sooner you get on the throttle the loner you would be under WOT.

Even though is clear that McLaren still suffers from drag compared to the competition, it isn’t the only factor affecting their top speed and lack of pace… Traction out of the corners seem to be an important component and something that the team is probably trying to address… On the other hand, we could also assume that the car has very good cornering speed, since it would be in the off-throttle sections were it makes the most amount of time compared to the likes of Alpine for example (who Lando outqualified) since not only was Alonso more time under WOT, but also with higher top speed in the speed traps (with the exception of Intermediate 2)

Hopefully this is a good sign for Hungary, where the time of throttle is larger than in France

https://i.imgur.com/QdzgQMx.jpg

Via: @F1DataAnalysis

Thanks for the chart- really interesting. I do think it's hard to infer this to be a pure indicator of traction though. Other factors such as lower engine power or a high downforce/high drag would mean a car spends longer on the straights and so would have a higher proportion of time at full throttle. Also braking performance would have an (albeit small) effect as being able to brake later would effectively increase the time on full throttle.