2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

[chrisc90]

And the Aramco rankings look like the drivers were picked out of a hat. I mean who on earth comes up with these things?

How it works
Our five-judge panel assess each driver after every Grand Prix and score them out of 10 according to their performance across the weekend – taking machinery out of the equation

Our experts’ scores are then averaged out to produce a race score – with those scores then tallied up across the season on our overall Power Rankings Leaderboard

Perhaps if Max hadn't spun, he'd have been a clear 1st instead of first equal.

And wheres Perez? 11th to 5th?

[Mchamilton]

And the Aramco rankings look like the drivers were picked out of a hat. I mean who on earth comes up with these things?

How it works
Our five-judge panel assess each driver after every Grand Prix and score them out of 10 according to their performance across the weekend – taking machinery out of the equation

Our experts’ scores are then averaged out to produce a race score – with those scores then tallied up across the season on our overall Power Rankings Leaderboard

Perhaps if Max hadn't spun, he'd have been a clear 1st instead of first equal.

And wheres Perez? 11th to 5th?

Pretty low down I'm imagine given his quali performance and then starting behind max and finishing 4 places and 15 seconds behind

[Just_a_fan]

Pro tip: check some F1 history and examine the careers of Senna and Schumacher. You may learn some new insights about racing, and the speed a driver can bring to a car. This generation has been tainted with an unbeatable car for a decade, and fans simply don’t realize what a good driver is anymore. You’re welcome.

Not even Senna and Schumacher can make a car lap faster than it is physically capable of going. That's called reality. You're welcome.

Michael Schumacher
Ayrton Senna
You’re welcome.

They. Could. Not. Make. A. Car. Go. Faster. Than. The. Laws. Of. Physics. Allow.

[Just_a_fan]

And the Aramco rankings look like the drivers were picked out of a hat. I mean who on earth comes up with these things?

How it works
Our five-judge panel assess each driver after every Grand Prix and score them out of 10 according to their performance across the weekend – taking machinery out of the equation

Our experts’ scores are then averaged out to produce a race score – with those scores then tallied up across the season on our overall Power Rankings Leaderboard

Perhaps if Max hadn't spun, he'd have been a clear 1st instead of first equal.

And wheres Perez? 11th to 5th?

It's over the weekend so would include his qualifying performance which was pretty poor in that Red Bull, having failed to get out of Q2 with a healthy car. At least Max and Hamilton, for example, had excuses for their lower than might be expected Q3 placings. And then in the race, Max went 10th to first but Perez only managed 5th from 11th. Really should have been on the podium on a weekend when Ferrari dropped the ball. Hence why his ranking is not in the top ten.

I guess.

[CMSMJ1]

Not even Senna and Schumacher can make a car lap faster than it is physically capable of going. That's called reality. You're welcome.

Michael Schumacher
Ayrton Senna
You’re welcome.

They. Could. Not. Make. A. Car. Go. Faster. Than. The. Laws. Of. Physics. Allow.

Am loathe to get into this one..but chaps...come on. You're both slower to right (and I am right, right?

The laptime of a car that could be delivered was not the same then, as it is now.

once upon a time - the car was never driven to the 99th percentile by anyone who might drive it. The balance, as it is in the top echelons of motorcycle racing, was with the driver (rider) who could extract the full 100% of the car's capability from it - which, when possible, was usually an anomalous result.

Senna - without a doubt - could extract more from his car in qually than probably anyone else has ever been able to do (and by this I mean from the 80% of car performance that Jonny Dumfries, or 90% that Alain Prost or Gerhard Berger could drag out of it.

Do we need another thread on this? It is interesting. I would place Hakkinen as outright faster than Schumi on a lap - but not always able to extract the full race at 100% of what the car could give. He did have a car advantage in 98/99 though..

Anyways...Hungary - enjoyed George on Pole - he can extract the ties from a car - but as he gets to now drive a car in the top percentile of performance his own value add, as a blend of the overall performance, is less - he canot take obver 100% from it.

[e30ernest]

Michael Schumacher
Ayrton Senna
You’re welcome.

They. Could. Not. Make. A. Car. Go. Faster. Than. The. Laws. Of. Physics. Allow.

Am loathe to get into this one..but chaps...come on. You're both slower to right (and I am right, right?

The laptime of a car that could be delivered was not the same then, as it is now.

once upon a time - the car was never driven to the 99th percentile by anyone who might drive it. The balance, as it is in the top echelons of motorcycle racing, was with the driver (rider) who could extract the full 100% of the car's capability from it - which, when possible, was usually an anomalous result.

Senna - without a doubt - could extract more from his car in qually than probably anyone else has ever been able to do (and by this I mean from the 80% of car performance that Jonny Dumfries, or 90% that Alain Prost or Gerhard Berger could drag out of it.

Do we need another thread on this? It is interesting. I would place Hakkinen as outright faster than Schumi on a lap - but not always able to extract the full race at 100% of what the car could give. He did have a car advantage in 98/99 though..

Anyways...Hungary - enjoyed George on Pole - he can extract the ties from a car - but as he gets to now drive a car in the top percentile of performance his own value add, as a blend of the overall performance, is less - he canot take obver 100% from it.

There was a Beyond The Grid guest (I think it was Marc Surer) who said that the drivers of back then were never as precise as the drivers of today. He said back then it was not uncommon to have large swings in time because they were basically feeling their way through the track and car.

Today's drivers have so much data behind them that they are able to extract almost all the performance the car can give. And it shows with their almost metronomic lap times through qualifying and the race.

[Big Tea]

They. Could. Not. Make. A. Car. Go. Faster. Than. The. Laws. Of. Physics. Allow.

Am loathe to get into this one..but chaps...come on. You're both slower to right (and I am right, right?

The laptime of a car that could be delivered was not the same then, as it is now.

once upon a time - the car was never driven to the 99th percentile by anyone who might drive it. The balance, as it is in the top echelons of motorcycle racing, was with the driver (rider) who could extract the full 100% of the car's capability from it - which, when possible, was usually an anomalous result.

Senna - without a doubt - could extract more from his car in qually than probably anyone else has ever been able to do (and by this I mean from the 80% of car performance that Jonny Dumfries, or 90% that Alain Prost or Gerhard Berger could drag out of it.

Do we need another thread on this? It is interesting. I would place Hakkinen as outright faster than Schumi on a lap - but not always able to extract the full race at 100% of what the car could give. He did have a car advantage in 98/99 though..

Anyways...Hungary - enjoyed George on Pole - he can extract the ties from a car - but as he gets to now drive a car in the top percentile of performance his own value add, as a blend of the overall performance, is less - he canot take obver 100% from it.

There was a Beyond The Grid guest (I think it was Marc Surer) who said that the drivers of back then were never as precise as the drivers of today. He said back then it was not uncommon to have large swings in time because they were basically feeling their way through the track and car.

Today's drivers have so much data behind them that they are able to extract almost all the performance the car can give. And it shows with their almost metronomic lap times through qualifying and the race.

It was also very probably a trip to hospital or worse if you went to 101%.
There were wire and bale catch fences and little in the way of modern car safety.
Much of being the fastest at around that period was dependent on how much risk you wanted to take.
And I don't mean risk of not finishing the race, I mean risk of finishing everything.

There was an overlap of young drivers who did not have the pictures and memories of past accidents in their heed that came along and instantly made a mark as they took the extra % and became the new way.
Some say Senna was like this, you yield or we crash, and everyone knew he was not going to give way.

I don't think drivers or cars from back then can be compare to each other in any way. Look at Alonso and Occon last week.
Now do that with the 'door' just above your hip and the other cars tyre scuffing your elbow and trees along the verge not strips and a long run off.

[PlatinumZealot]

You can make a car go faster than the computer simulation or the design envelope of the car suggests. So many ways to do it. And it has been done before.

It's not breaking the laws of physics at all. It's just going over the design limits.

[e30ernest]

You can make a car go faster than the computer simulation or the design envelope of the car suggests. So many ways to do it. And it has been done before.

It's not breaking the laws of physics at all. It's just going over the design limits.

Design limits are not the same as physical limits though.

[bluechris]

The full potential of a car that is the 100% as you say here, is when a car basically doesn't slide nowhere according to physics. When a driver understeer in a corner under breaking and with that gets the ability to turn better which means faster, then this driver had exceeded the limit of the car and passes to other realm. Off course all the drivers slide under braking or accelerating and with the current information they have from their teams, they know how much they can try more.
Here is the key for me that distinguishes normal drivers from very good ones.
Max & Leclerc for example can drive constantly like this with Max a little on top. All this act to put it together in a qualifying lap and even more, to do it constantly in the race (where the tyres of the current era prohibit it), need huge amount of ability.
What Russell did was great but no more no less he did 1 lap where he combined together all his learning from all FPs and Q1,Q2. It was a great lap but let not confuse this lap with what Senna or even Prost, Hakinen or Hamilton was/are able to do consistently during the length of a race.

[SparkyAMG]

Going over the limit of grip and sliding through a corner will never be quicker than going through it on the limit of grip. It might not be much slower but it won't be quicker.

Of course the nuances of setting a fast lap mean that in reality drivers are constantly trading ultimate performance and tire usage in some corners or even parts of corners to be overall faster over the whole lap. The best drivers do this most consistently, but they're never going beyond the laws of physics.

We've heard teams talk about how their drivers have extracted more from the car than they thought possible, but all that suggests is that their simulations weren't accurate enough.

[bluechris]

Going over the limit of grip and sliding through a corner will never be quicker than going through it on the limit of grip. It might not be much slower but it won't be quicker.

I respectfully disagree for 2 main reasons.
1. Sliding from the back under braking, turns the nose inside the corner and you can carry more speed in the apex
2. Sliding under acceleration exiting the corner gives you the ability again of extra turning with the result more speed.

Both of the above cannot be done consistently with the Pirelly tyres offcourse but can be done to a percentage and for this reason we see 2 drivers with the same car and the one is faster from the other. Its all together , sliding, braking above limit and nursing the tyres (to be ok for 1 qual lap and not overheat) that make some of the drivers stant above the rest. For the race you need to know exactly how much more you can push to reach the pitstop delta. Hamilton is a great example on this because he is one of the few that has the ability to be fast but simultaneously not to destroy his tyres.

[Jolle]

Going over the limit of grip and sliding through a corner will never be quicker than going through it on the limit of grip. It might not be much slower but it won't be quicker.

Of course the nuances of setting a fast lap mean that in reality drivers are constantly trading ultimate performance and tire usage in some corners or even parts of corners to be overall faster over the whole lap. The best drivers do this most consistently, but they're never going beyond the laws of physics.

We've heard teams talk about how their drivers have extracted more from the car than they thought possible, but all that suggests is that their simulations weren't accurate enough.

Tires have the best grip when they slide a little bit. The better you are as a driver to stay in this window, the faster you are. F1 cars are so damn difficult to race because this slip sweet point is so small (especially combined with the downforce that doesn't like slip that much).

[ringo]

I think drivers can go beyond the simulated time. The simulators approximate what the car is doing, but is only as good as the guestimates and math used to do these predictions. A drive on the real track can find more grip than suggested by a simulation because of the actual road surface, the actual tyre grip temps, etc. wind, etc.
So I do believe a driver can go beyond what a team can explain with its existing data.
However there is an unknown theoretical limit bounded by physics, the driver cannot go beyond this. But since this limit is not known to man, it may be fair to say a driver outdrove the car. He simply drove beyond the understanding of the data.

[Jolle]

I think drivers can go beyond the simulated time. The simulators approximate what the car is doing, but is only as good as the guestimates and math used to do these predictions. A drive on the real track can find more grip than suggested by a simulation because of the actual road surface, the actual tyre grip temps, etc. wind, etc.
So I do believe a driver can go beyond what a team can explain with its existing data.
However there is an unknown theoretical limit bounded by physics, the driver cannot go beyond this. But since this limit is not known to man, it may be fair to say a driver outdrove the car. He simply drove beyond the understanding of the data.

That’s not outdriving the car, it’s outperforming the sim (or a sim with wrong parameters)