2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[organic]

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this, apologies if it isn't. I figured it relates to the "how many upgrades" discussion.

Here's a list of the teams' upgrades this year so far. Not sure how accurate it is (I pasted FER/RB/MERC below, but lists other teams as well):

https://scuderiafans.com/list-of-all-f1 ... 22-season/

FERRARI
-Bahrain: progressive evolution of the floor through successive updates during the tests.
-Saudi Arabia: medium-low load rear wing.
-Australia: different design of the central ramp of the diffuser (tested on Friday).
-Imola: /
-Miami: new low-load rear wing.
-Barcelona: floor; diffuser; external aerodynamic elements to the rear brake air intakes; new high load rear wing.
-Monaco: / (possible adjustment of the steering kinematics, not officially confirmed).
-Baku: rearview mirror support.
-Canada: medium load rear wing with higher efficiency; low load beam-wing.
-Silverstone: bodywork (sidepods and engine cover); rear-view mirror supports.
-Austria: /
-France: Venturi channels.
-Hungary: /
-Spa: low-load aerodynamic configuration: rear wing with new single-profile flaps and beam-wings
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: /
-Singapore: /
-Japan: modifications to the floor, front flow diverter and rear tie rod.

MERCEDES
-Bahrain: sidepods and radiators; nose with a greater excavation in the lower part; car floor (the second version tested in the first free practice session was rejected); new end profiles of the front wing for changes to the aerodynamic balance; refinement of the vertical deflectors of the rear brake ducts
-Saudi Arabia: double specification of low load rear wing;
-Australia: /
-Imola: downwash elements in the center of the car to increase the amount of air to the radiators; re-profiling of mirrors and fairing of the side impact structure for small aero gains; floor updates; raised floor in front of the rear wheels and new external diffuser flaps to increase downforce at the rear.
-Miami: low load straight profile rear wing; low load beam wing; front wing with more efficiency.
-Barcelona: front wing endplate; vortex generator on the keel at the entrance to the floor; external vertical deflectors to the rear brake air intakes.
-Monaco: anterior wing endplate; adaptation of the steering mechanism.
-Baku: rear-view mirror support
-Canada: floor (rejected); rear suspension outer fairing.
-Silverstone: floor and Venturi channels update; front suspension fairing; downash elements in front of the side air intakes; external band of the floor
-Austria: /
-France: back edge of the floor front wheel unit cooling.
-Hungary: /
-Spa: floor; front wing endplate fitting; small change to the endplate and upper flap of the rear wing
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: front and rear wing upper flaps from low load;
-Singapore: /
-Japan: /

RED BULL
-Bahrain: small changes to the sidepods; front wing refinement; new vertical strips of the rear diffuser.
-Saudi Arabia: enlargement of the front brake cooling air intakes; debut rear wing and low-load beam wing.
-Australia: new lighter front wing endplates with a different diveplane trend.
-Imola: vortex generator at the entrance to the floor; new mechanical components for weight reduction.
-Miami: /
-Barcelona: high-load flap for the front wing; floor.
-Monaco: adaptation of the steering kinematics; increased braking system cooling.
-Baku: front brake cooling updates; floor; external rear diffuser flaps.
-Canada: /
-Silverstone: engine cover; floor; Venturi channels; cooling of the front brake system.
-Austria: Venturi channels grid; cooling vent in the upper part of the engine cover; cooling of the front brake system.
-France: Venturi channels grid; several upper aerodynamic elements external to the rear wheels; beam wing.
-Hungary: beam wing.
-Spa: re-profiling of the sidepods; updates to the rear arm of the lower triangle of the rear suspension.
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: low load rear wing upper flap
-Singapore: refining of the Venturi channels;
-Japan: /

It's pretty good but limited by some teams understating upgrades on declaration form, but it's mostly good.

One thing it doesn't highlight well is that RB and Mercedes have only 2-3 wing specs. Ferrari have 5 or 6 (!)

[SuperCNJ]

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this, apologies if it isn't. I figured it relates to the "how many upgrades" discussion.

Here's a list of the teams' upgrades this year so far. Not sure how accurate it is (I pasted FER/RB/MERC below, but lists other teams as well):

https://scuderiafans.com/list-of-all-f1 ... 22-season/

FERRARI
-Bahrain: progressive evolution of the floor through successive updates during the tests.
-Saudi Arabia: medium-low load rear wing.
-Australia: different design of the central ramp of the diffuser (tested on Friday).
-Imola: /
-Miami: new low-load rear wing.
-Barcelona: floor; diffuser; external aerodynamic elements to the rear brake air intakes; new high load rear wing.
-Monaco: / (possible adjustment of the steering kinematics, not officially confirmed).
-Baku: rearview mirror support.
-Canada: medium load rear wing with higher efficiency; low load beam-wing.
-Silverstone: bodywork (sidepods and engine cover); rear-view mirror supports.
-Austria: /
-France: Venturi channels.
-Hungary: /
-Spa: low-load aerodynamic configuration: rear wing with new single-profile flaps and beam-wings
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: /
-Singapore: /
-Japan: modifications to the floor, front flow diverter and rear tie rod.

MERCEDES
-Bahrain: sidepods and radiators; nose with a greater excavation in the lower part; car floor (the second version tested in the first free practice session was rejected); new end profiles of the front wing for changes to the aerodynamic balance; refinement of the vertical deflectors of the rear brake ducts
-Saudi Arabia: double specification of low load rear wing;
-Australia: /
-Imola: downwash elements in the center of the car to increase the amount of air to the radiators; re-profiling of mirrors and fairing of the side impact structure for small aero gains; floor updates; raised floor in front of the rear wheels and new external diffuser flaps to increase downforce at the rear.
-Miami: low load straight profile rear wing; low load beam wing; front wing with more efficiency.
-Barcelona: front wing endplate; vortex generator on the keel at the entrance to the floor; external vertical deflectors to the rear brake air intakes.
-Monaco: anterior wing endplate; adaptation of the steering mechanism.
-Baku: rear-view mirror support
-Canada: floor (rejected); rear suspension outer fairing.
-Silverstone: floor and Venturi channels update; front suspension fairing; downash elements in front of the side air intakes; external band of the floor
-Austria: /
-France: back edge of the floor front wheel unit cooling.
-Hungary: /
-Spa: floor; front wing endplate fitting; small change to the endplate and upper flap of the rear wing
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: front and rear wing upper flaps from low load;
-Singapore: /
-Japan: /

RED BULL
-Bahrain: small changes to the sidepods; front wing refinement; new vertical strips of the rear diffuser.
-Saudi Arabia: enlargement of the front brake cooling air intakes; debut rear wing and low-load beam wing.
-Australia: new lighter front wing endplates with a different diveplane trend.
-Imola: vortex generator at the entrance to the floor; new mechanical components for weight reduction.
-Miami: /
-Barcelona: high-load flap for the front wing; floor.
-Monaco: adaptation of the steering kinematics; increased braking system cooling.
-Baku: front brake cooling updates; floor; external rear diffuser flaps.
-Canada: /
-Silverstone: engine cover; floor; Venturi channels; cooling of the front brake system.
-Austria: Venturi channels grid; cooling vent in the upper part of the engine cover; cooling of the front brake system.
-France: Venturi channels grid; several upper aerodynamic elements external to the rear wheels; beam wing.
-Hungary: beam wing.
-Spa: re-profiling of the sidepods; updates to the rear arm of the lower triangle of the rear suspension.
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: low load rear wing upper flap
-Singapore: refining of the Venturi channels;
-Japan: /

It would be interesting to see the same list produced for the 2021 season to see whether RB actually had the most upgrades.

[Sieper]

No way Max loses either title. The team will be punished but not the drivers. Even back in 2007 when McLaren were thrown out of the championship, the drivers kept their points.

Although i agree for 9 of the teams, For Redbull, it isnt a punishment, Redbull dont care at all about the contructors, never have never will, you can find loads of speaches from Horner and Marko saying exactly that over the years....

Plus, this season and last now has no integrity, both championships tarnished and not a good look for the sport in general, i also dont buy this rubbish harshly punihsing Redbull is bad for the sport, Punishing cheats has always worked in favour of all sports who do it... Punihsing cheats only serves to uphold the integrity of the sport which should be the most important aspect of any sport. with out it, its not sport.

Yes, I know. They've never been worried about the constructor title because they know that the reality is that most people don't know / acre about which manufacturer won the title. They just focus on the driver title. And so does Red Bull. They did it with Seb and they're doing it with Max. and it marks them out as very different to Mercedes, for example, who focus on the constructor title as much, if not more, than the driver title.

No they don’t. Bottas was as much an also run as Perez is. Gasly, Albon were as much a viable talent as Russell is and Ricciardo wasn’t worse than Rosberg.

[Edax]

<snip>

Imo, the primary issue is that the FIA is a cowardly organization. They never adequately punish people for breaking the rules, regardless of what the rule is. The are always so worried about affecting the show, the race results, the championship results, etc that they don't do their job properly!

Well in the 1989 championship they did push the rules to the letter as they did in 1976. That didn’t make anyone happy either.

F1 is a sport where everyone pushes the limits and sometimes goes over it. Either blatantly or subtly and sometimes unknowingly.

The Ferrari out of phase kers, the mercedes oil burners, RB fuel flow sensors, Renault moving weights, trick suspension, flexiwings, flexifloors, hidden traction control, pressure regulating rims, double fuel tanks. The list goes on. The budget cap just adds a new dimension to compete on.

FIA tries to police this, cutting unfair advantages, while at the same time preventing teams from losing face. Don’t forget that f1 is worth billions, but it all hinges on a handful of teams and big sponsors who don’t want to be associated with “cheating”. Lose one or two of the top teams and it takes you a decade to get back to an appealing series.

I can understand that in such environment it is hard to get it right.

[organic]

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this, apologies if it isn't. I figured it relates to the "how many upgrades" discussion.

Here's a list of the teams' upgrades this year so far. Not sure how accurate it is (I pasted FER/RB/MERC below, but lists other teams as well):

https://scuderiafans.com/list-of-all-f1 ... 22-season/

FERRARI
-Bahrain: progressive evolution of the floor through successive updates during the tests.
-Saudi Arabia: medium-low load rear wing.
-Australia: different design of the central ramp of the diffuser (tested on Friday).
-Imola: /
-Miami: new low-load rear wing.
-Barcelona: floor; diffuser; external aerodynamic elements to the rear brake air intakes; new high load rear wing.
-Monaco: / (possible adjustment of the steering kinematics, not officially confirmed).
-Baku: rearview mirror support.
-Canada: medium load rear wing with higher efficiency; low load beam-wing.
-Silverstone: bodywork (sidepods and engine cover); rear-view mirror supports.
-Austria: /
-France: Venturi channels.
-Hungary: /
-Spa: low-load aerodynamic configuration: rear wing with new single-profile flaps and beam-wings
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: /
-Singapore: /
-Japan: modifications to the floor, front flow diverter and rear tie rod.

MERCEDES
-Bahrain: sidepods and radiators; nose with a greater excavation in the lower part; car floor (the second version tested in the first free practice session was rejected); new end profiles of the front wing for changes to the aerodynamic balance; refinement of the vertical deflectors of the rear brake ducts
-Saudi Arabia: double specification of low load rear wing;
-Australia: /
-Imola: downwash elements in the center of the car to increase the amount of air to the radiators; re-profiling of mirrors and fairing of the side impact structure for small aero gains; floor updates; raised floor in front of the rear wheels and new external diffuser flaps to increase downforce at the rear.
-Miami: low load straight profile rear wing; low load beam wing; front wing with more efficiency.
-Barcelona: front wing endplate; vortex generator on the keel at the entrance to the floor; external vertical deflectors to the rear brake air intakes.
-Monaco: anterior wing endplate; adaptation of the steering mechanism.
-Baku: rear-view mirror support
-Canada: floor (rejected); rear suspension outer fairing.
-Silverstone: floor and Venturi channels update; front suspension fairing; downash elements in front of the side air intakes; external band of the floor
-Austria: /
-France: back edge of the floor front wheel unit cooling.
-Hungary: /
-Spa: floor; front wing endplate fitting; small change to the endplate and upper flap of the rear wing
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: front and rear wing upper flaps from low load;
-Singapore: /
-Japan: /

RED BULL
-Bahrain: small changes to the sidepods; front wing refinement; new vertical strips of the rear diffuser.
-Saudi Arabia: enlargement of the front brake cooling air intakes; debut rear wing and low-load beam wing.
-Australia: new lighter front wing endplates with a different diveplane trend.
-Imola: vortex generator at the entrance to the floor; new mechanical components for weight reduction.
-Miami: /
-Barcelona: high-load flap for the front wing; floor.
-Monaco: adaptation of the steering kinematics; increased braking system cooling.
-Baku: front brake cooling updates; floor; external rear diffuser flaps.
-Canada: /
-Silverstone: engine cover; floor; Venturi channels; cooling of the front brake system.
-Austria: Venturi channels grid; cooling vent in the upper part of the engine cover; cooling of the front brake system.
-France: Venturi channels grid; several upper aerodynamic elements external to the rear wheels; beam wing.
-Hungary: beam wing.
-Spa: re-profiling of the sidepods; updates to the rear arm of the lower triangle of the rear suspension.
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: low load rear wing upper flap
-Singapore: refining of the Venturi channels;
-Japan: /

It would be interesting to see the same list produced for the 2021 season to see whether RB actually had the most upgrades.

I can tell you that they did. A similar level of upgrades to the floor edge, bargeboards and front wing (merc's unraced, Sochi) as Merc. However, they also brought 3 different floors to pre-season testing, many front brake duct cooling layouts throughout the season, a modified diffuser, and a modified underbody (unraced, Saudi)

It seemed like even greater disparity because RB rolled out their updates sequentially - one update each weekend. Whereas Mercedes brought almost all of theirs at Silverstone in one chunk, which meant semantically it felt like less of an onslaught of upgrades.

[Zynerji]

This is such a mess that could have been avoided... Cap exemptions and offsets were always going to be interpreted by lawyers.

[Stu]

IIRC the standings from the end of 2021 applied for the first half of 2022, then it changed based on the standings at that time - so they would be eligible for more CFD time in a period which has passed anyways.

And those other teams that finished below them would be eligible for less time (which they are unable to use - the qualifying period has passed), making it possible that some (if not all) of them breached their respective caps.

Any penalty that isn’t a Schumacher-style ‘ban’ for the season in question can only be awarded for future time/funds/activities. In the eyes/minds of some, no punishment will be harsh enough, regardless of how minor/major the breach. Although an ‘empty’ 8th WDC may go some way to achieving fairness….

[Just_a_fan]

Although i agree for 9 of the teams, For Redbull, it isnt a punishment, Redbull dont care at all about the contructors, never have never will, you can find loads of speaches from Horner and Marko saying exactly that over the years....

Plus, this season and last now has no integrity, both championships tarnished and not a good look for the sport in general, i also dont buy this rubbish harshly punihsing Redbull is bad for the sport, Punishing cheats has always worked in favour of all sports who do it... Punihsing cheats only serves to uphold the integrity of the sport which should be the most important aspect of any sport. with out it, its not sport.

Yes, I know. They've never been worried about the constructor title because they know that the reality is that most people don't know / acre about which manufacturer won the title. They just focus on the driver title. And so does Red Bull. They did it with Seb and they're doing it with Max. and it marks them out as very different to Mercedes, for example, who focus on the constructor title as much, if not more, than the driver title.

No they don’t. Bottas was as much an also run as Perez is. Gasly, Albon were as much a viable talent as Russell is and Ricciardo wasn’t worse than Rosberg.

Horner has been public on a number of occasions saying that they don't care about the constructor title. It's a simple fact that they prioritise one driver.

[Just_a_fan]

IIRC the standings from the end of 2021 applied for the first half of 2022, then it changed based on the standings at that time - so they would be eligible for more CFD time in a period which has passed anyways.

And those other teams that finished below them would be eligible for less time (which they are unable to use - the qualifying period has passed), making it possible that some (if not all) of them breached their respective caps.

Any penalty that isn’t a Schumacher-style ‘ban’ for the season in question can only be awarded for future time/funds/activities. In the eyes/minds of some, no punishment will be harsh enough, regardless of how minor/major the breach. Although an ‘empty’ 8th WDC may go some way to achieving fairness….

It's less hollow than one won by cheating, sorry, dubious book-keeping, or official manipulation, sorry, incompetent application of the rules. Wouldn't you say?

[Stu]

IIRC the standings from the end of 2021 applied for the first half of 2022, then it changed based on the standings at that time - so they would be eligible for more CFD time in a period which has passed anyways.

And those other teams that finished below them would be eligible for less time (which they are unable to use - the qualifying period has passed), making it possible that some (if not all) of them breached their respective caps.

Any penalty that isn’t a Schumacher-style ‘ban’ for the season in question can only be awarded for future time/funds/activities. In the eyes/minds of some, no punishment will be harsh enough, regardless of how minor/major the breach. Although an ‘empty’ 8th WDC may go some way to achieving fairness….

It's less hollow than one won by cheating, sorry, dubious book-keeping, or official manipulation, sorry, incompetent application of the rules. Wouldn't you say?

Thank you for proving my point, you win a prize!!
George Russell could still be in the running for 2022 WDC

[Sieper]

Yes, I know. They've never been worried about the constructor title because they know that the reality is that most people don't know / acre about which manufacturer won the title. They just focus on the driver title. And so does Red Bull. They did it with Seb and they're doing it with Max. and it marks them out as very different to Mercedes, for example, who focus on the constructor title as much, if not more, than the driver title.

No they don’t. Bottas was as much an also run as Perez is. Gasly, Albon were as much a viable talent as Russell is and Ricciardo wasn’t worse than Rosberg.

Horner has been public on a number of occasions saying that they don't care about the constructor title. It's a simple fact that they prioritise one driver.

I thought you said Horners' claim that redbull believes to be within budget cap was false.

[mwillems]

And those other teams that finished below them would be eligible for less time (which they are unable to use - the qualifying period has passed), making it possible that some (if not all) of them breached their respective caps.

Any penalty that isn’t a Schumacher-style ‘ban’ for the season in question can only be awarded for future time/funds/activities. In the eyes/minds of some, no punishment will be harsh enough, regardless of how minor/major the breach. Although an ‘empty’ 8th WDC may go some way to achieving fairness….

It's less hollow than one won by cheating, sorry, dubious book-keeping, or official manipulation, sorry, incompetent application of the rules. Wouldn't you say?

Thank you for proving my point, you win a prize!!
George Russell could still be in the running for 2022 WDC

If you were to put odds on either of these outcomes, what do you think they would be??

I'm just trying to gauge your sanity

[f1jcw]

And those other teams that finished below them would be eligible for less time (which they are unable to use - the qualifying period has passed), making it possible that some (if not all) of them breached their respective caps.

Any penalty that isn’t a Schumacher-style ‘ban’ for the season in question can only be awarded for future time/funds/activities. In the eyes/minds of some, no punishment will be harsh enough, regardless of how minor/major the breach. Although an ‘empty’ 8th WDC may go some way to achieving fairness….

It's less hollow than one won by cheating, sorry, dubious book-keeping, or official manipulation, sorry, incompetent application of the rules. Wouldn't you say?

Thank you for proving my point, you win a prize!!
George Russell could still be in the running for 2022 WDC

His point is, that the current one is more hollow due to two transgressions, but in the eyes/minds of some we should just ignore that for some reason unfathoramble reason. I mean it can't be sporting reason

[Big Tea]

Despite what we think and some would like, imagine the result of DSQ or heavy points removal on the championship and what happened at the time and would need to be redressed.

There were books printed that have wrong information, it happens.
The teams were allocated cash and allowances relative to their position, all of which would be incorrect. Money they did not get and resources such as tunnel time they did, and no way can they be returned or caught up.

Sponsors probably paid out bonuses on finishing position, will they top up to meet the new positions (Erm, probably not)

Now the real can of worms.

How many people placed bets on either Max or Lewis being champion, drivers or teams final positions etc.

OK, everyone we paid out as Max for Champ, please pop along to the local office and return the payment in error ( Yeh, the queue will be forming early in the in the morning (Not again))

Then what about those who had money on Lewis winning? (join the same queue?)

It is just not going to happen is it?

[Mosin123]

Despite what we think and some would like, imagine the result of DSQ or heavy points removal on the championship and what happened at the time and would need to be redressed.

There were books printed that have wrong information, it happens.
The teams were allocated cash and allowances relative to their position, all of which would be incorrect. Money they did not get and resources such as tunnel time they did, and no way can they be returned or caught up.

Sponsors probably paid out bonuses on finishing position, will they top up to meet the new positions (Erm, probably not)

Now the real can of worms.

How many people placed bets on either Max or Lewis being champion, drivers or teams final positions etc.

OK, everyone we paid out as Max for Champ, please pop along to the local office and return the payment in error ( Yeh, the queue will be forming early in the in the morning (Not again))

Then what about those who had money on Lewis winning? (join the same queue?)

It is just not going to happen is it?

They dont use them as excuses in other sports to allow cheaters/ rule breakers to have titles, in fact, most sports are pretty strict with protecting it. Redbull having to answer to its sponsors and so on if nothing at all to do with the FIA, they should have made sure they stayed with in budget.