2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[DGP123]

Yes. They’ve pretty much stated they want to put this behind them now and move on. Nothing else will happen now, or be altered. It is what it is.

Can’t stand RB/Horner, and can only hope Mercedes or Ferrari stick it to them next season.

[west52keep64]

I also heard the rumor that the tax credit was applied for late and they have not yet received it, but quite honestly I’m not going to put any stock in that until it is confirmed by Red Bull, the FIA, or some other legitimate source. The way the ABA is worded suggests that Red Bull either had the credit or had satisfactory evidence they would receive the credit when they supplied their 2021 documentation. If it was applied for as an afterthought to cover up the severity of their cap breach or something similarly nefarious (not sure why they wouldn’t have applied earlier, it’s free money) I don’t think the FIA would have been so generous with the wording of the agreement.

And I say this as someone who can’t stand RB/Max/any thought of last year’s finale.

You understand what the word "notional" means right? The way the ABA is worded confirms they haven't received the tax credit.



EDIT: Link to the document https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6.32_1.pdf

EDIT: And for the avoidance of doubt:

[Gooch]

Yes, but clearly the FIA is satisfied with whatever status it is currently in, otherwise I’m sure they would have loved to omit that paragraph and tell RB to pound sand. Maybe it’s what they debated over for weeks.

[f1jcw]

And if it never happens, what then, quietly ignore it and and treat a virtual tax back as legitimate or recognise the overspend was 2.2 million

[GrizzleBoy]

Can someone explain to me what interest the FIA has in telling us Red Bull "would have" broken the cap by ~400k and not the millions they have factually broken it by IF their tax break wasnt a fairly tale?

What purpose does it serve except to justify the non penalty and help people mentally connect that non penalty to the lower amount?

[f1jcw]

Just this in my mind. Basically fia doesn’t want to invalidate the last 2 championships, so it’s trying to lessen the offence

What purpose does it serve except to justify the non penalty and help people mentally connect that non penalty to the lower amount?

[Dee]

I also heard the rumor that the tax credit was applied for late and they have not yet received it, but quite honestly I’m not going to put any stock in that until it is confirmed by Red Bull, the FIA, or some other legitimate source. The way the ABA is worded suggests that Red Bull either had the credit or had satisfactory evidence they would receive the credit when they supplied their 2021 documentation. If it was applied for as an afterthought to cover up the severity of their cap breach or something similarly nefarious (not sure why they wouldn’t have applied earlier, it’s free money) I don’t think the FIA would have been so generous with the wording of the agreement.

And I say this as someone who can’t stand RB/Max/any thought of last year’s finale.

You understand what the word "notional" means right? The way the ABA is worded confirms they haven't received the tax credit.

https://i.imgur.com/QWTmWYV.png

EDIT: Link to the document https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6.32_1.pdf

EDIT: And for the avoidance of doubt:

https://i.imgur.com/dbezgyP.png

Love that you picked the word out of a dictionary, rather than what the word means in the tax world

https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk/tolley/tax ... ax-credits

"For example, these rules apply where claimants:

provide a service for low rates of payment"

RB receive a 13.5% Tax cut from the British Government to due research and development being carried out in Britain

The notional income is tax they haven't received yet but will get in the future due to the tax credit

RB overspent by 400,000 pounds in 2021. Thats it.

Now go and cry into the sand RB haters

[f1jcw]

Cry? Cause the facts are at this moment they have not got a tax break and it still stands at 2.2million over spend.
You try and lessen that with it was only 400k overspend? Seriously.

Their is something called sporting integrity

[Dee]

Cry? Cause the facts are at this moment they have not got a tax break and it still stands at 2.2million over spend.
You try and lessen that with it was only 400k overspend? Seriously.

Their is something called sporting integrity

Every single team that is in Britain has this Notional Tax Credit. The FIA states that RB incorrectly left it out instead of including it.

"Had RB applied the correct treatment within its full year"...

RB should have included it, they didn't

That is why the FIA went on to say that RB's total figure is 0.37% or 430,000 sterling

[f1jcw]

Maybe those other teams have received it. Red bull has not, it is still virtual. They have not even submitted their end of year accounts yet.

[diffuser]

I also heard the rumor that the tax credit was applied for late and they have not yet received it, but quite honestly I’m not going to put any stock in that until it is confirmed by Red Bull, the FIA, or some other legitimate source. The way the ABA is worded suggests that Red Bull either had the credit or had satisfactory evidence they would receive the credit when they supplied their 2021 documentation. If it was applied for as an afterthought to cover up the severity of their cap breach or something similarly nefarious (not sure why they wouldn’t have applied earlier, it’s free money) I don’t think the FIA would have been so generous with the wording of the agreement.

And I say this as someone who can’t stand RB/Max/any thought of last year’s finale.

You understand what the word "notional" means right? The way the ABA is worded confirms they haven't received the tax credit.

https://i.imgur.com/QWTmWYV.png

EDIT: Link to the document https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6.32_1.pdf

EDIT: And for the avoidance of doubt:

https://i.imgur.com/dbezgyP.png

Love that you picked the word out of a dictionary, rather than what the word means in the tax world

https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk/tolley/tax ... ax-credits

"For example, these rules apply where claimants:

provide a service for low rates of payment"

RB receive a 13.5% Tax cut from the British Government to due research and development being carried out in Britain

The notional income is tax they haven't received yet but will get in the future due to the tax credit

RB overspent by 400,000 pounds in 2021. Thats it.

Now go and cry into the sand RB haters

That would only be true if they don't use that tax credit some time in the future. If they do, then they went over by the full amount in 2021. Also, we have to take RBR word that any of that is even true OR that british government doesn't disapprove of what they claim that research is. It's very possible that when they file thier income tax the Goverment says "no" to watever credit they're applying for. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush, right now that notion is in the bush.

[Dee]

Aston Martin did the same thing with the tax credits

[Zynerji]

In 2022, a $10k USD, you can build a multi-teraflop desktop CFD computer for your home.

I never understood how these aero engineers are prevented from doing "studies" at home, then bringing that knowledge to the office, and re-create their findings there.

Or, how you can prohibit one team to run a simulation using 1000s cores in the cloud paid by a sponsor.
Seriously.

Not actual car designs tho, that would be illegal. How about just case studies on different things? Generative ML computer-only designs would not be a technical foul to the regulations, but they could be provided to a team and so that they can just consume the philosophies that are presented, and digest them into their F1 cars. Maybe that triggers a request for a specific case study by the teams, like how to retain X while instituting Y.

It seems like an AMD, Oracle or DarkTrace lile sponsorship would include things just like this.

[Dee]

You understand what the word "notional" means right? The way the ABA is worded confirms they haven't received the tax credit.

https://i.imgur.com/QWTmWYV.png

EDIT: Link to the document https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6.32_1.pdf

EDIT: And for the avoidance of doubt:

https://i.imgur.com/dbezgyP.png

Love that you picked the word out of a dictionary, rather than what the word means in the tax world

https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk/tolley/tax ... ax-credits

"For example, these rules apply where claimants:

provide a service for low rates of payment"

RB receive a 13.5% Tax cut from the British Government to due research and development being carried out in Britain

The notional income is tax they haven't received yet but will get in the future due to the tax credit

RB overspent by 400,000 pounds in 2021. Thats it.

Now go and cry into the sand RB haters

That would only be true if they don't use that tax credit some time in the future. If they do, then they went over by the full amount in 2021. Also, we have to take RBR word that any of that is even true OR that british government doesn't disapprove of what they claim that research is. It's very possible that when they file thier income tax the Goverment says "no" to watever credit they're applying for. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush, right now that notion is in the bush.

Any British based team could have done this. Merc could have put in 2 million notional tax credit into the right area and are under the cost cap now because of it. Fact is, it is allowed and accurate and its the method the FIA are using.

Imo, they would not be doing this without confirmation from the British government and as its now Oct of 2022, I think we can take that 1.4 million 2021 credit as fact.

In fact, the statement from the FIA is factual about this tax credit bringing it down to 400,000

[Gooch]

400k or 2.2m, both minor breaches in the eyes of the FIA. I don’t think it would make one lick of difference this year either way when Red Bull leads the WCC by nearly 200 points.

You could make a different argument about last year but there were bigger problems than this affecting last year’s results.

And again, I say this as someone whose most disliked driver on the grid is Max.

If the cap wasn’t effective at least one of the other 9 teams would’ve tried to breach it.