Cadillac racing in F1 with Andretti

[CMSMJ1]

That is not really true though, when was the last time that GM (with any brand) had a ‘factory’ involvement with F1?

Have to be looking at Lamborghini in the early 90s? There was the famous 1993 Lambo McLaren.

Lambo was a Chrysler (GM) brand then?

[AR3-GP]

What would be bizzare, is having GM and Honda arch-rivals for over a decade in Indycar, to suddenly share an F1 program. That's just not going to happen. Once can see the conflict of interest from a mile away.

Honda and GM are already collaborating on EV powertrains and mid-size SUV platforms. Given their level of collaboration on road car engineering, it's not that far fetched they'd collaborate on an F1 PU. And Reuss specifically said their Indycar rivalry wasn't a barrier to working together in F1.

This is not relevant though. This partnership will not be marketed and acknowledged in the public anymore than the Supra-Z4 Platform sharing. GM won't say their EV runs Honda platform. Honda will not say their EV runs GM platform.

These kinds of things are easy to hide from the public.

An F1 car driving around under Cadillac name, and Honda badged PU is something else entirely and it won't happen for 2 reasons. a) GM/Cadillac will not allow it unless it is rebadged to a GM brand PU. b) Honda will not join that team without having their full name associated with it.

I'm happy to revisit this post in due time.

All signs point to rebadged Renault PU for the Cadillac-Andretti team. Renault wants someone else to use their engine. Honda wants an F1 team. The latter is incompatible with Cadillac/Andretti.

[AR3-GP]

What would be bizzare, is having GM and Honda arch-rivals for over a decade in Indycar, to suddenly share an F1 program. That's just not going to happen. Once can see the conflict of interest from a mile away.

Michael also said "It'll be more of a collaboration with another manufacturer". True collaboration with Renault just isn't going to happen, Renault will build their PU however Renault wants and Andretti won't have any real influence. But collaboration is possible with Honda, especially if Andretti is the only team using the Honda PU.

Honda would benefit from working with GM. Honda would get to do the R&D while getting GM to pay for some/most of it. Having someone else's sticker on the car is lower risk for Honda. And it's a lower-cost (board-friendly) way to get on the grid if the current alternative is the super expensive option of buying another team.

I still think Renault power is more likely than Honda power (hell, I think customer Red Bull power is more likely too), but it's far from impossible. It's even more likely if Honda already plans to be on the grid with another team in 2026 as well. That's still a big "if" though.

As for the rest, Honda don't want to be a shadow manufacturer in F1. They want to have an official team, a team that acknowledges the HONDA componentry. This is wholly incompatible with what Andretti Cadillac brings to the table.

[Rushu]

I think RBPT and Cadillac could fit perfectly for 2026+.
RBPT builds and Cadillac pays for the name.

[FW17]

I think RBPT and Cadillac could fit perfectly for 2026+.
RBPT builds and Cadillac pays for the name.

So would be the works team?

[MIKEY_!]

Honda and GM are already collaborating on EV powertrains and mid-size SUV platforms. Given their level of collaboration on road car engineering, it's not that far fetched they'd collaborate on an F1 PU. And Reuss specifically said their Indycar rivalry wasn't a barrier to working together in F1.

This is not relevant though. This partnership will not be marketed and acknowledged in the public anymore than the Supra-Z4 Platform sharing. GM won't say their EV runs Honda platform. Honda will not say their EV runs GM platform.

People keep saying this isn't relevant, but that's just not true. Much like other people keep saying it's the same thing, and that's not true either. There is a middle ground there that a lot of people can't seem to get their heads around. The fact is it's very relevant and shouldn't be dismissed, but it's more tenuous than the Renault link - which is the main reason why I think Renault is more likely.

An F1 car driving around under Cadillac name, and Honda badged PU is something else entirely and it won't happen

Who said anything about it being a Honda badged PU?

Honda will not join that team without having their full name associated with it.

That might be true, but as far as I know we are not currently in a position to assert that as fact. Unless you can post credible evidence?

Honda wants an F1 team. The latter is incompatible with Cadillac/Andretti.

That's not true. Honda can have an F1 team and supply Cadillac/Andretti, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive - in fact there could be some nice synergies between two teams. What it can't do is make Cadillac/Andretti a Honda team.

[jordanb]

Honda and GM are already collaborating on EV powertrains and mid-size SUV platforms. Given their level of collaboration on road car engineering, it's not that far fetched they'd collaborate on an F1 PU. And Reuss specifically said their Indycar rivalry wasn't a barrier to working together in F1.

Michael also said "It'll be more of a collaboration with another manufacturer". True collaboration with Renault just isn't going to happen, Renault will build their PU however Renault wants and Andretti won't have any real influence. But collaboration is possible with Honda, especially if Andretti is the only team using the Honda PU.

Honda would benefit from working with GM. Honda would get to do the R&D while getting GM to pay for some/most of it. Having someone else's sticker on the car is lower risk for Honda. And it's a lower-cost (board-friendly) way to get on the grid if the current alternative is the super expensive option of buying another team.

I still think Renault power is more likely than Honda power (hell, I think customer Red Bull power is more likely too), but it's far from impossible. It's even more likely if Honda already plans to be on the grid with another team in 2026 as well. That's still a big "if" though.

This is exactly why, RBPT should try and operate on its own and not hand over part of their destiny to someone else like Honda. Having already invested in RBPT, Red Bull should press forward for complete independence. There may be early struggles, but eventually they will get it right. Honda has always had a volatile board room when it comes to F1.

[Stu]

That is not really true though, when was the last time that GM (with any brand) had a ‘factory’ involvement with F1?

Have to be looking at Lamborghini in the early 90s? There was the famous 1993 Lambo McLaren.

Lambo was a Chrysler (GM) brand then?

I did think “Lamborghini”, but Chrysler are not a GM brand; they are the ‘third’ American brand.

I also thought of Lotus (during a similar period) as GM owned Lotus Cars, but Team Lotus was never a part of that deal.

[mwillems]

Chrysler are owned by Fiat and Peugeot, who merged to form Stellantis.

[CMSMJ1]

That is not really true though, when was the last time that GM (with any brand) had a ‘factory’ involvement with F1?

Have to be looking at Lamborghini in the early 90s? There was the famous 1993 Lambo McLaren.

Lambo was a Chrysler (GM) brand then?

I did think “Lamborghini”, but Chrysler are not a GM brand; they are the ‘third’ American brand.

I also thought of Lotus (during a similar period) as GM owned Lotus Cars, but Team Lotus was never a part of that deal.

Ahh - that'll teach me!

There has been a few rumours of FIA being all for this new team but F1 not being quite so welcoming.. I suppose that is par for the course with this sport. Nothing is simple.

[JordanMugen]

There has been a few rumours of FIA being all for this new team but F1 not being quite so welcoming.. I suppose that is par for the course with this sport. Nothing is simple.

FOM would prefer Andretti Autosport buy out the entry of an existing team, which is not unreasonable.

As a fan, I would rather see a tender opened and the full grid capacity of 26 cars. It would be wonderful to add Cadillac-Renault, Honda and Porsche teams for instance. (Just Cadillac with Cadillac power unit even better!) If however, the added teams are like Hispania and are halfway between pole position and F2 pace, they may not be such useful additions though.

Perhaps instead of a flat $200m fee, the three additional spots could be auctioned to the highest bidder? Sadly this would prioritise speculative investment firms (and/or auto manufacturers) over F2 or LMP2 teams looking to upgrade to F1, but Andretti are backed by an investment firm anyway AFIK.

Chrysler are owned by Fiat and Peugeot, who merged to form Stellantis.

Interestingly, Chrysler does not have a direct US equivalent to Cadillac (General Motors) or Lincoln (Ford). Chrysler itslef is a semi-premium brand but it is more along the lines of GM's Buick or Ford's Mercury (now defunct) I suppose.

I guess Alfa Romeo now serves as the prestige brand for Chrysler Jeep Dodge dealers, but buyers probably don't perceive Alfa Romeo as an American luxury car brand, but rather an Italian one. Not that being perceived as American would help sales, as it seems the best way to sell prestige cars in North America is to be perceived as German.

[Also selling the volume-making "premium" Alfa Romeo Tonale as a near identical mass-market value-priced Dodge Hornet seems like shooting oneself in the foot. Buyers aren't stupid, they can see it's the same car, and that the Alfa Romeo has a higher price than the Dodge for no apparent reason!]

TLDR: US auto makers have too many brands. Adding Fiat, Maserati and Alfa Romeo to the mix just made it even worse for Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge dealerships!

This is not withstanding that Chrysler already closed down the AMC brands they didn't want (i.e., everything apart from Jeep) like AMC and, ironically given these Cadillac-Renault Formula One Team rumours, the North American arm of Renault...

I also thought of Lotus (during a similar period) as GM owned Lotus Cars, but Team Lotus was never a part of that deal.

General Motors famously decided that it was a good idea for the second-generation Lotus Elan to use a modern front-wheel-drive transverse engine layout, unlike the "old-fashioned" rear-wheel-drive Mazda MX-5 (a lowly Elan knockoff that would never amount to anything?).

...and GM thought the Chevrolet Citation would be a worthy competitor to the VW Passat and Honda Accord (it was not).

...and even recently GM closed down their small car production in part due to the Chevrolet Cruze's horrible reputation for lack of quality and lack of durability.

But in other news, the Cadillac CT5-V and Chevrolet Corvette are great at least!

[Airshifter]

All the excuses are gone for FOM.

Andretti has checked all the boxes, and they already have a solid name in motorsport. At this point it's in poor taste to not let them enter.

It's making the entire process seem foolish and exclusive to the point that they will let floundering teams remain based on the names of their historic accomplishments in the sport and do their best to disallow new teams from entering. I would think the 200 million alone is fairly strong evidence that anyone trying to come in with a new team is serious about their desires.

As for Cadillac, though many still view it simply as a luxury brand, it's target audience here in the US seems to have moved more towards the younger generations as compared to what Cadillac was years ago. They have made more than a few capable performance cars, They produced cars that would do 13 second quarter miles almost 15 years ago now. As for using Cadillac over other GM brands for a tie in with F1, why not? Though their older cars were huge beasts, most US cars were compared to anything in Europe. And for many years GM refused to allow any other brand to have higher engine outputs than what was sold in the Cadillac cars. Even some of the older ones were torque monsters, and surprisingly quick for their size.

The new Blackwing engine cars are over 650 horsepower.

[mwillems]

In terms of GM, any entry from them would be the second for Stellantis, after Ferrari.

[everythingisawesome]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/64177632

Andretti in F1 is very exciting, I'll be pleased to see more teams on the grid and more spots for talented drivers.

But Cadillac... I didn't see that coming.

Same with Alpine.. It's just a brand name under General Motors

But the brand that you attach to F1 has some significance, right? Alpine make fast cars.

Cadillac is not a brand associated with speed so it seems like they are trying to transform that brand a little, move it away from the boat on wheels image. I couldn't think of many "Less F1-esque" brand than Cadillac for GMs first entry into F1.

I was rather hoping for a Ford entry too, I miss them in the sport.

Cadillac have a presence in motorsport. Just not in Europe.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/113 ... -the-track

Plenty of evidence in posts above about fast Cadillac cars..

[Vaexa]

What a lot of people miss when the subject of ''team value'' in F1 comes up is the value inherent in having a current team.

The exclusivity drives up team value. If the only way for a prospective F1 entrant is to buy one of the 10 golden tickets on the grid, that makes the value of those 10 golden tickets go up massively. Conversely, printing an 11th ticket makes the value of the existing 10 go down.

This is constantly missed in conversations about marketing value, Andretti's pedigree as a racing team and addition to the quality of the product (hint: no one really cares about this one that much) and the value added by having a luxury sedan manufacturer written on the camshaft cover. Andretti being allowed on the grid as an 11th team seriously devalues the existing 10 teams. None of the existing 10 teams want that. Liberty Media doesn't want it. And there you go; accountants looking to maximise the left side of the balance sheet ruin everyone's fun.