2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mzso
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wuzak wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 06:15
So this is a Rotating Detonation Engine

And somehow it's supposed to efficiently power a generator.

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vorticism
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As a gas generator iirc was the original proposal and this might work. However it requires liquid oxygen...
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mzso
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vorticism wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 21:02
As a gas generator iirc was the original proposal and this might work. However it requires liquid oxygen...
Yeah, but with a pulsating supersonic jet of gas?

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Zynerji wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 22:31
vorticism wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 21:02
As a gas generator iirc was the original proposal and this might work. However it requires liquid oxygen...
Is that due to injection pressure, or the oxygen mass?
Several reasons. It's intended for an orbital rocket, which needs to carry both fuel and oxidizer for use outside of the atmosphere. Reacting fuel with oxidizer directly also provides a more energetic reaction which rocket engines are reliant upon to achieve combustion chamber pressure, exhaust velocity, and sufficient thrust. To do this with air (w only 10% oxidizer) would alter the rocket design. Air breathing rockets are conceptualized and usually involved some sort of compression of the air consumed in the combustion chamber, either by super or hypersonic compression as in ramjets or by liquifying the air with cryogenic heat exchangers as with the Skylon.
Last edited by vorticism on 03 Apr 2023, 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Zynerji
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vorticism wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 21:02
As a gas generator iirc was the original proposal and this might work. However it requires liquid oxygen...
Is that due to injection pressure, or the oxygen mass?

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Zynerji
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vorticism wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 21:25
Zynerji wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 22:31
vorticism wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 21:02
As a gas generator iirc was the original proposal and this might work. However it requires liquid oxygen...
Is that due to injection pressure, or the oxygen mass?
Several reasons. It's intended for an orbital rocket, which needs to carry both fuel and oxidizer for use outside of the atmosphere. Reacting fuel with oxidizer directly also provides a more energetic reaction which rocket engines are reliant upon to achieve combustion chamber pressure, exhaust velocity, and sufficient thrust. To do this with air (w only 10% oxidizer) would alter the rocket design. Air breathing rockets are conceptualized and usually involved some sort of compression of the air consumed in the combustion chamber, either by super or hypersonic compression as in ramjets or by liquifying the air with cryogenic heat exchangers as with the Skylon.
I thought you were speaking of the rde turbine generator. Upon more research, I've seen that a 2-3 cm annular diameter would only need 1.5bar to operate, but the devil is in the fuelling.

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So there are other examples other than the NASA prototype?
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vorticism wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 21:02
As a gas generator iirc was the original proposal and this might work. However it requires liquid oxygen...
And currently is low powered and runs for less than 2 minutes at a time.

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Zynerji
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wuzak wrote: ↑
03 Apr 2023, 10:34
vorticism wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 21:02
As a gas generator iirc was the original proposal and this might work. However it requires liquid oxygen...
And currently is low powered and runs for less than 2 minutes at a time.
Yes. Sounds like a great challenge to the teams. If F1 remains hybrid, I believe a gas turbine generator will be the way of the future

gruntguru
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Small gas turbines are way less efficient than current PUs and the timeframe for getting them into the same ballpark would be IMO longer than the demise of heat engines in F1.
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Zynerji
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gruntguru wrote: ↑
03 Apr 2023, 23:46
Small gas turbines are way less efficient than current PUs and the timeframe for getting them into the same ballpark would be IMO longer than the demise of heat engines in F1.
RDE is more efficient exhaust generator, has zero moving parts, and can have multiple detonation waves concurrently. also, it has noise.

My idea was to combine the MGU-H turbo with the RDE. The turbo kit would be identical in efficiency, it would come down to the exhaust generation, and I dont see the moving mass of a V6 being anywhere close to the RDE in that regard.

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Zynerji wrote: ↑
04 Apr 2023, 00:45
RDE is more efficient exhaust generator, has zero moving parts ....
do you mean gas generator ? (ie producing high pressure/velocity gas)

"zero moving parts"
how does the air get compressed ? - (in a vehicle doing 30 - 180 mph)

losing the 8 speed gearbox will degrade the electrical side

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Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑
04 Apr 2023, 10:53
Zynerji wrote: ↑
04 Apr 2023, 00:45
RDE is more efficient exhaust generator, has zero moving parts ....
do you mean gas generator ? (ie producing high pressure/velocity gas)

"zero moving parts"
how does the air get compressed ? - (in a vehicle doing 30 - 180 mph)

losing the 8 speed gearbox will degrade the electrical side
What am I missing here? Your post history seems clear that you are intelligent enough to get what I posted.

V6+turbo+mguh -> RDE+turbo+mguh

Turbo still moves on both sides, but you lose 100% of the v6 moving parts if RDE drives the turbo. The turbo moves in both...

It would probably end up with 2 RDE+Turbo+MGUH driving a big K unit that is integrated directly into the transmission, like the GM 2ML70. Just with beefier electrics.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote: ↑
03 Apr 2023, 15:32
wuzak wrote: ↑
03 Apr 2023, 10:34
vorticism wrote: ↑
02 Apr 2023, 21:02
As a gas generator iirc was the original proposal and this might work. However it requires liquid oxygen...
And currently is low powered and runs for less than 2 minutes at a time.
Yes. Sounds like a great challenge to the teams. If F1 remains hybrid, I believe a gas turbine generator will be the way of the future
Depending on what you think of as hybrid. (possibly meaning fuel cell + battery)

mzso
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Zynerji wrote: ↑
04 Apr 2023, 13:23
V6+turbo+mguh -> RDE+turbo+mguh

Turbo still moves on both sides, but you lose 100% of the v6 moving parts if RDE drives the turbo. The turbo moves in both...
Well, it only exists in your fantasy so far.
A real turbo works on a steady-ish flow hot gas. I personally can't imagine turbines being created for supersonic shock-waves of a detonation, that work efficiently, or work at all.