F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

[PlatinumZealot]

Guys, I have another "invention" for F1 that's not really an invention at all.

I believe some other racing series may already have started doing it. What I'm bringing up is hot-swap-able energy stores.

In 2026 the electrical contribution to power will be 50% and the fuel, or rather the energy from fuel, will be limited over the race to approximately 70% of what it is now. This means that very likely a bigger energy store will come into play.

Since the rules are not yet finalized, it is not clear yet how the bigger energy store might be managed. I am thinking in the case were the energy store is non-sustainable at max charge over the race, or in other words, the energy garnered from KERS (no MGUH anymore!) is less than the potential allowed discharge rate - or simply put a single battery starts the race at 100% SOC and maxes out at say, 50% at the end of the race - The rules could be made to allow battery swaps!

That is teams can choose to sacrifice a longer pit stop to swap their 50% (consecutive lap max charge) for a fully 100% charged battery that can give a few more seconds of pace to gain some positions. It would be fun to work out how many kilowatt hours of energy store plus new tyres can make this difference over a given stint, if the rules were fashioned for this. It won't be as extreme as Formula e where you are dead in the water without a battery swap. It would be milder, more manageable drop in pace than anything else, where your big is a "dead weight" and it would be attractive to "hot swap it" in a pit stop.

So yeah, so the engineering side now bring this thought to the discussion, how energy dense are expecting batteries to be to make them small enough to swap under the chassis (skid plate and all) or even from the side of chassis? Current batteries are regulated to 20kg? but most if it is ballast. What if we hot swap a 40kg battery? And how many kWhrs would that contain? It's a fascinating premise.

[NL_Fer]

Why not (wireless) quickcharge at 1000Kw ?

[Greg Locock]

Once upon a time a solar car team realised that if they ran lead acids and lithium non rechargeable cells, they could match the weight and capacity of an equivalent (very expensive) silver zinc battery for very little cost. Obviously it isn't as flexible as a fully rechargeable battery, but some modelling indicated that it made sense. Silver Zincs are only good for 10 cycles anyway.

Since the regs were in their infancy we checked to find if it was legal, and back in the day it was. So that's what we used. Outlawed for the next race.

By emphasising light weight over rechargeability you will push the teams towards battery chemistries that are less 'realistic'.

40 kg of typical (rechargeable) Li ion batteries is 5 kWh, as the specific energy is 460 kJ/kg according to wiki.

[PlatinumZealot]

Why not (wireless) quickcharge at 1000Kw ?

You would go back to "heavy fuel rigs" again except this time you have to wire the entire pitlane and isntall massive transformers i suppose.

[Zynerji]

Why not (wireless) quickcharge at 1000Kw ?

You would go back to "heavy fuel rigs" again except this time you have to wire the entire pitlane and isntall massive transformers i suppose.

Meh. It's a flat mat that lays in the pit box, and rolls up for transport. I don't think it's single point failure is its physical dimensions, that would appear to be it's ineffectiveness with only 2 second long pitstop times.

Hot swap would need to be some kind of forced electrolyte gel exchange, I feel. Not impossible, weight stable, and possibly very safe. It would be worth investigating IMHO.

[Big Tea]

Why not (wireless) quickcharge at 1000Kw ?

You would go back to "heavy fuel rigs" again except this time you have to wire the entire pitlane and isntall massive transformers i suppose.

Meh. It's a flat mat that lays in the pit box, and rolls up for transport. I don't think it's single point failure is its physical dimensions, that would appear to be it's ineffectiveness with only 2 second long pitstop times.

Hot swap would need to be some kind of forced electrolyte gel exchange, I feel. Not impossible, weight stable, and possibly very safe. It would be worth investigating IMHO.

Would 'hot swap' not be a canaster type? Pull one unit out and install the replacement that could have been charged at lower rates over time? Much as used to be regularly done with phone batteries.

[Zynerji]

You would go back to "heavy fuel rigs" again except this time you have to wire the entire pitlane and isntall massive transformers i suppose.

Meh. It's a flat mat that lays in the pit box, and rolls up for transport. I don't think it's single point failure is its physical dimensions, that would appear to be it's ineffectiveness with only 2 second long pitstop times.

Hot swap would need to be some kind of forced electrolyte gel exchange, I feel. Not impossible, weight stable, and possibly very safe. It would be worth investigating IMHO.

Would 'hot swap' not be a canaster type? Pull one unit out and install the replacement that could have been charged at lower rates over time? Much as used to be regularly done with phone batteries.

Maybe. That's why I suggested it's worth investigating. To suss out the optimal solution.

Twist-lock canister exchange, or fuel rig-type "suck through" hoses.

[PlatinumZealot]

Why not (wireless) quickcharge at 1000Kw ?

You would go back to "heavy fuel rigs" again except this time you have to wire the entire pitlane and isntall massive transformers i suppose.

Meh. It's a flat mat that lays in the pit box, and rolls up for transport. I don't think it's single point failure is its physical dimensions, that would appear to be it's ineffectiveness with only 2 second long pitstop times.

Hot swap would need to be some kind of forced electrolyte gel exchange, I feel. Not impossible, weight stable, and possibly very safe. It would be worth investigating IMHO.

The power supply for 1 megawatt is not a trivial thing i dont know if you thought of what powers the mat.

High power induction mat is another engineering challenge in itself. Ferrous parts in the car would get hot under that massive flux if it is not controlled. It also would have to be water cooled.

[Zynerji]

You would go back to "heavy fuel rigs" again except this time you have to wire the entire pitlane and isntall massive transformers i suppose.

Meh. It's a flat mat that lays in the pit box, and rolls up for transport. I don't think it's single point failure is its physical dimensions, that would appear to be it's ineffectiveness with only 2 second long pitstop times.

Hot swap would need to be some kind of forced electrolyte gel exchange, I feel. Not impossible, weight stable, and possibly very safe. It would be worth investigating IMHO.

The power supply for 1 megawatt is not a trivial thing i dont know if you thought of what powers the mat.

High power induction mat is another engineering challenge in itself. Ferrous parts in the car would get hot under that massive flux if it is not controlled. It also would have to be water cooled.

It simply couldn't do any meaningful charging in the 2-3 seconds that the car is stationary. If an electrolytic gel was used, especially in pods, it would extend the pitstops to 4-5 seconds, with needing 4 full pods (start and 3 pitstops), we could have some amazing tyre abuse as well as electric cars in F1.

[PlatinumZealot]

My topic is about charge density of hot swap batteries, right. But you didn't try to work out the tech of a hot-swap battery any at all. You immediately jumped to propose induction charging, which is an opposing argument ( opposing argument are fine, but it's usually acceptable to argue the first side before introducing yours). But my issue is, It seems you haven't figured it all of the intricacies of a 1MW charging mat for F1 and we are sort of trashing it out here. So I think mentioning the charging mat is a good thing, but unless the intricacies can be figured out in a few posts, it might need a thread on its own to develop the ideas there, then bring them forward into this thread.

[Stu]

An interesting proposal and great way to look at solutions.
At a cursory glance, there are a few possible hurdles to overcome:-
* Pack size & mass
* Accessibility & security
* Temperature & recharging

Some of the issues are transferable between the three and have other macro effects related to logistics, engineering & operations.

[Zynerji]

Formula E has the monopoly on all-electric open wheel racing, so this entire thread is pointless to argue.

Replaceable batteries makes no sense in a hybrid series.

[wuzak]

In 2026 the electrical contribution to power will be 50% and the fuel, or rather the energy from fuel, will be limited over the race to approximately 70% of what it is now. This means that very likely a bigger energy store will come into play.

Since the rules are not yet finalized, it is not clear yet how the bigger energy store might be managed. I am thinking in the case were the energy store is non-sustainable at max charge over the race, or in other words, the energy garnered from KERS (no MGUH anymore!) is less than the potential allowed discharge rate - or simply put a single battery starts the race at 100% SOC and maxes out at say, 50% at the end of the race - The rules could be made to allow battery swaps!

The ES rules seem pretty final.

The specify design and construction, required safety features, minimum mass and maximum storage.

So yeah, so the engineering side now bring this thought to the discussion, how energy dense are expecting batteries to be to make them small enough to swap under the chassis (skid plate and all) or even from the side of chassis? Current batteries are regulated to 20kg? but most if it is ballast. What if we hot swap a 40kg battery? And how many kWhrs would that contain? It's a fascinating premise.

Storage is 4MJ maximum delta state of charge. Minimum weight for casing, cells, and other specified components, is 35kg.

And there is a limit to the number of ES used in a season.

[wuzak]

Replaceable batteries makes no sense in a hybrid series.

Particularly when storage is so limited.

[dpat99]

On this topic,

have you guys seen this, they are making a concept of swapping the batteries on-the-fly commercially:
https://www.scmp.com/video/scmp-origina ... -batteries