2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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f1universe
f1universe
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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NAPI10 wrote:
28 May 2023, 19:35
Wrong call by the team to switch to Medium on the first pit-stop but I am surprised Alonso didn't overrule the team's call & asked for inters. Max confirmed the same when the Redbull pit wall suggest 'Inters'.
He was in doubt if you listen the radio and at the end of the day if the team tells him rain is going to be light or go away in a few laps, why should he question it?.

abhi1200
abhi1200
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Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 08:16

Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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First of all, great race. The rain mixed up things for a handful of laps before they settled down again. But I think there was a big opportunity for Aston Martin (AM) to snatch victory. Let's have a short,messy but by the numbers analysis!
Start of lap 54: The difference between Max Verstappen (MV) and Fernando Alonso (FA) is 13.3s. Rain starts to affect the race.
End of lap 54: The difference between MV and FA is 8.1s, presumably MV starts to drive extremely carefully during L54.
This is where FA and AM decide to pit. They put the medium slick tyres on, dooming FA's chances of victory. At the same time, the two Mercedes and Alpine decide to pit for intermediates.
Lap 55: Verstappen laps a 2.10.567 (similar laptimes were recorded by the Ferrari, also on slicks), since he is on slicks and the rain has intensified especially in the span of T3-T6. Alonso is not on course for a great lap as well, he has gained 4 seconds on MV in the first two sectors though. Both decide to pit at
the end of lap 55 and fit the intermediates. Now, had FA and AM fit the inters the lap earlier, he would find himself comfortably in front of MV.
At lap 55, LH dials in a 1.39.603, Ocon 1.42.379, Gasly 1.43.220, Russell spins but still laps at 1.55.804.
If we make a conservative estimation (and FA stays error-free) and dials a 1.45.x, which is slower than LH and the two Alpine, he is leading MV by 17 seconds, if we suppose similar pit stops.
Could he win the race from there? Who knows. But he would certainly had the greatest opportunity so far to win a GP after 10 years.
PS. This post is not to bush FA, or AM or whatever. They had a great race, I'm just putting some numbers there because I didn't see this being discussed in the post-race interviews. Great race, bring on Catalunya!

TimW
TimW
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Joined: 01 Aug 2019, 19:07

Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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abhi1200 wrote:
29 May 2023, 08:27
First of all, great race. The rain mixed up things for a handful of laps before they settled down again. But I think there was a big opportunity for Aston Martin (AM) to snatch victory. Let's have a short,messy but by the numbers analysis!
Start of lap 54: The difference between Max Verstappen (MV) and Fernando Alonso (FA) is 13.3s. Rain starts to affect the race.
End of lap 54: The difference between MV and FA is 8.1s, presumably MV starts to drive extremely carefully during L54.
This is where FA and AM decide to pit. They put the medium slick tyres on, dooming FA's chances of victory. At the same time, the two Mercedes and Alpine decide to pit for intermediates.
Lap 55: Verstappen laps a 2.10.567 (similar laptimes were recorded by the Ferrari, also on slicks), since he is on slicks and the rain has intensified especially in the span of T3-T6. Alonso is not on course for a great lap as well, he has gained 4 seconds on MV in the first two sectors though. Both decide to pit at
the end of lap 55 and fit the intermediates. Now, had FA and AM fit the inters the lap earlier, he would find himself comfortably in front of MV.
At lap 55, LH dials in a 1.39.603, Ocon 1.42.379, Gasly 1.43.220, Russell spins but still laps at 1.55.804.
If we make a conservative estimation (and FA stays error-free) and dials a 1.45.x, which is slower than LH and the two Alpine, he is leading MV by 17 seconds, if we suppose similar pit stops.
Could he win the race from there? Who knows. But he would certainly had the greatest opportunity so far to win a GP after 10 years.
PS. This post is not to bush FA, or AM or whatever. They had a great race, I'm just putting some numbers there because I didn't see this being discussed in the post-race interviews. Great race, bring on Catalunya!
Note that the 2:10 from Max is a lap time including the pit stop. Better simply compare the gap from Max to Ocon, who pitted for Inters one lap earlier.
Ocon gained about 12 seconds on Max. So Alonso would have got out ahead, but by about 5 seconds.

wickedz50
wickedz50
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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TimW wrote:
29 May 2023, 10:06
abhi1200 wrote:
29 May 2023, 08:27
First of all, great race. The rain mixed up things for a handful of laps before they settled down again. But I think there was a big opportunity for Aston Martin (AM) to snatch victory. Let's have a short,messy but by the numbers analysis!
Start of lap 54: The difference between Max Verstappen (MV) and Fernando Alonso (FA) is 13.3s. Rain starts to affect the race.
End of lap 54: The difference between MV and FA is 8.1s, presumably MV starts to drive extremely carefully during L54.
This is where FA and AM decide to pit. They put the medium slick tyres on, dooming FA's chances of victory. At the same time, the two Mercedes and Alpine decide to pit for intermediates.
Lap 55: Verstappen laps a 2.10.567 (similar laptimes were recorded by the Ferrari, also on slicks), since he is on slicks and the rain has intensified especially in the span of T3-T6. Alonso is not on course for a great lap as well, he has gained 4 seconds on MV in the first two sectors though. Both decide to pit at
the end of lap 55 and fit the intermediates. Now, had FA and AM fit the inters the lap earlier, he would find himself comfortably in front of MV.
At lap 55, LH dials in a 1.39.603, Ocon 1.42.379, Gasly 1.43.220, Russell spins but still laps at 1.55.804.
If we make a conservative estimation (and FA stays error-free) and dials a 1.45.x, which is slower than LH and the two Alpine, he is leading MV by 17 seconds, if we suppose similar pit stops.
Could he win the race from there? Who knows. But he would certainly had the greatest opportunity so far to win a GP after 10 years.
PS. This post is not to bush FA, or AM or whatever. They had a great race, I'm just putting some numbers there because I didn't see this being discussed in the post-race interviews. Great race, bring on Catalunya!
Note that the 2:10 from Max is a lap time including the pit stop. Better simply compare the gap from Max to Ocon, who pitted for Inters one lap earlier.
Ocon gained about 12 seconds on Max. So Alonso would have got out ahead, but by about 5 seconds.
If team and driver is happy with the results and not complaining about their strategies then what can fans say and do. However I doubt that even with the change over to inters on the 1st stop there was a chance of win here. Fed was preserving his 2nd place and never looked to challenge for 1st which is logical from his POV given the strengths of the Aston.

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Bisonas
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Joined: 01 Feb 2015, 11:56

Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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abhi1200 wrote:
29 May 2023, 08:27
First of all, great race. The rain mixed up things for a handful of laps before they settled down again. But I think there was a big opportunity for Aston Martin (AM) to snatch victory. Let's have a short,messy but by the numbers analysis!
Start of lap 54: The difference between Max Verstappen (MV) and Fernando Alonso (FA) is 13.3s. Rain starts to affect the race.
End of lap 54: The difference between MV and FA is 8.1s, presumably MV starts to drive extremely carefully during L54.
This is where FA and AM decide to pit. They put the medium slick tyres on, dooming FA's chances of victory. At the same time, the two Mercedes and Alpine decide to pit for intermediates.
Lap 55: Verstappen laps a 2.10.567 (similar laptimes were recorded by the Ferrari, also on slicks), since he is on slicks and the rain has intensified especially in the span of T3-T6. Alonso is not on course for a great lap as well, he has gained 4 seconds on MV in the first two sectors though. Both decide to pit at
the end of lap 55 and fit the intermediates. Now, had FA and AM fit the inters the lap earlier, he would find himself comfortably in front of MV.
At lap 55, LH dials in a 1.39.603, Ocon 1.42.379, Gasly 1.43.220, Russell spins but still laps at 1.55.804.
If we make a conservative estimation (and FA stays error-free) and dials a 1.45.x, which is slower than LH and the two Alpine, he is leading MV by 17 seconds, if we suppose similar pit stops.
Could he win the race from there? Who knows. But he would certainly had the greatest opportunity so far to win a GP after 10 years.
PS. This post is not to bush FA, or AM or whatever. They had a great race, I'm just putting some numbers there because I didn't see this being discussed in the post-race interviews. Great race, bring on Catalunya!
I am not arguing the result, my analysis also says that ALO would be in front if he had fitted inters from the start, but it wouldn't be for 17 seconds. It would be for around 1 to 6 seconds depending on the warm up of inters and how fast could Alonso go on them on his out lap. My analysis says that he could have gained 9-15 seconds on his Inters out lap, compared to VER very old mediums in lap. Taking into account that they had 8.177 seconds difference when he first pitted, i am concluding he would be 1 to 6 seconds in front, after VER had pitted.

My analysis is based on Yuki Tsunoda times because he pitted almost the same time as ALO so they where running the same part of the track with ALO on similar conditions. Analyzing the In lap sector times of VER on old mediums, the out lap sector times of ALO on new mediums, and the out lap sector times of Tsunoda on new Inters, gives you the above result.

Just to give you an example of what happened, VER did 55.513 sector 2 on his in lap with very old mediums, ALO did 51.697 on his fresh mediums out lap, and TSU did 47.660 on his Inters out lap.

So yea, if TSU gained 7.8sec compared to VER on Sector 2 alone, i am sure ALO on inters combining all the sectors of his out lap, would have gained somewhere around 9-15 seconds. That would have brought him 1 to 6 seconds ahead of VER.

And i am being conservative here.

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BassVirolla
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Joined: 20 Jul 2018, 23:55

Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Bisonas wrote:
29 May 2023, 10:16
abhi1200 wrote:
29 May 2023, 08:27
First of all, great race. The rain mixed up things for a handful of laps before they settled down again. But I think there was a big opportunity for Aston Martin (AM) to snatch victory. Let's have a short,messy but by the numbers analysis!
Start of lap 54: The difference between Max Verstappen (MV) and Fernando Alonso (FA) is 13.3s. Rain starts to affect the race.
End of lap 54: The difference between MV and FA is 8.1s, presumably MV starts to drive extremely carefully during L54.
This is where FA and AM decide to pit. They put the medium slick tyres on, dooming FA's chances of victory. At the same time, the two Mercedes and Alpine decide to pit for intermediates.
Lap 55: Verstappen laps a 2.10.567 (similar laptimes were recorded by the Ferrari, also on slicks), since he is on slicks and the rain has intensified especially in the span of T3-T6. Alonso is not on course for a great lap as well, he has gained 4 seconds on MV in the first two sectors though. Both decide to pit at
the end of lap 55 and fit the intermediates. Now, had FA and AM fit the inters the lap earlier, he would find himself comfortably in front of MV.
At lap 55, LH dials in a 1.39.603, Ocon 1.42.379, Gasly 1.43.220, Russell spins but still laps at 1.55.804.
If we make a conservative estimation (and FA stays error-free) and dials a 1.45.x, which is slower than LH and the two Alpine, he is leading MV by 17 seconds, if we suppose similar pit stops.
Could he win the race from there? Who knows. But he would certainly had the greatest opportunity so far to win a GP after 10 years.
PS. This post is not to bush FA, or AM or whatever. They had a great race, I'm just putting some numbers there because I didn't see this being discussed in the post-race interviews. Great race, bring on Catalunya!
I am not arguing the result, my analysis also says that ALO would be in front if he had fitted inters from the start, but it wouldn't be for 17 seconds. It would be for around 1 to 6 seconds depending on the warm up of inters and how fast could Alonso go on them on his out lap. My analysis says that he could have gained 9-15 seconds on his Inters out lap, compared to VER very old mediums in lap. Taking into account that they had 8.177 seconds difference when he first pitted, i am concluding he would be 1 to 6 seconds in front, after VER had pitted.

My analysis is based on Yuki Tsunoda times because he pitted almost the same time as ALO so they where running the same part of the track with ALO on similar conditions. Analyzing the In lap sector times of VER on old mediums, the out lap sector times of ALO on new mediums, and the out lap sector times of Tsunoda on new Inters, gives you the above result.

Just to give you an example of what happened, VER did 55.513 sector 2 on his in lap with very old mediums, ALO did 51.697 on his fresh mediums out lap, and TSU did 47.660 on his Inters out lap.

So yea, if TSU gained 7.8sec compared to VER on Sector 2 alone, i am sure ALO on inters combining all the sectors of his out lap, would have gained somewhere around 9-15 seconds. That would have brought him 1 to 6 seconds ahead of VER.

And i am being conservative here.
Also, we have to take into account that Tsunoda was struggling heavily with cold brakes when on inters. He was barely able to stop the car in every corner. Probably Alonso would pulled more than 6 seconds.

abhi1200
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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as per amus: The additional tire change not only cost 24 seconds to drive through the pits, but another five seconds on the track because he had to go through the wet passage on slicks with the handbrake on, which had now become significantly larger. Despite this, Alonso remained second. At that point, he had 24.3 seconds to spare third-placed Esteban Ocon.

so this extra 5 second could have made difference if he didnt stopped for second pit stop.

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Last edited by abhi1200 on 29 May 2023, 12:15, edited 1 time in total.

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search
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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abhi1200 wrote:
29 May 2023, 11:48
as per amus: The additional tire change not only cost 24 seconds to drive through the pits, but another five seconds on the track because he had to go through the wet passage on slicks with the handbrake on
a pit stop alone only costs around 19s in Monaco, though. So AmuS got their numbers wrong this time.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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search wrote:
29 May 2023, 12:06
abhi1200 wrote:
29 May 2023, 11:48
as per amus: The additional tire change not only cost 24 seconds to drive through the pits, but another five seconds on the track because he had to go through the wet passage on slicks with the handbrake on
a pit stop alone only costs around 19s in Monaco, though. So AmuS got their numbers wrong this time.
Pit is 19 s in the dry. Wet requires a slower entry at rascasse. Slower entry to the box, slower exit of the box, and slower exit through the turn 1 right hander. That may account for 5 seconds or more.
A lion must kill its prey.

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search
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
29 May 2023, 14:40
search wrote:
29 May 2023, 12:06
abhi1200 wrote:
29 May 2023, 11:48
as per amus: The additional tire change not only cost 24 seconds to drive through the pits, but another five seconds on the track because he had to go through the wet passage on slicks with the handbrake on
a pit stop alone only costs around 19s in Monaco, though. So AmuS got their numbers wrong this time.
Pit is 19 s in the dry. Wet requires a slower entry at rascasse. Slower entry to the box, slower exit of the box, and slower exit through the turn 1 right hander. That may account for 5 seconds or more.
yeah, could be the reason for a bigger number indeed, but that part of the track turned wet fairly late, and you'd also lose speed on track due to the smaller advantage over pit lane speed. Hard to say, because both Alonso and Verstappen pitted for Inters during the same lap:

53 - ALO 24,002 44,284 22,576 - VER 23,457 44,072 22,390
54 - ALO 23,855 46,657 37,799 - VER 24,995 49,817 24,134
55 - ALO 28,660 51,697 46,278 - VER 28,610 55,513 46,444
56 - ALO 28,632 52,761 27,138 - VER 30,769 48,885 26,477

(bold sector times are pit-affected)

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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What a race by Alonso!

Impressive for any F1 driver, but when you take into account he´s 41 years old... :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


Fair question, why so much talks about 2026? You can´t rely on AM for next season? Hopefully next season they´ll be closer to RBR, and he can fight for the title, hopefully! :D


KimiRai wrote:
24 May 2023, 04:39
Where are the alonso is blocked by Honda guys now?
Joining the boat of "Alonso will never drive for McLaren again" guys :mrgreen:

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peewon
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Its weird that both AM and Fernando were insisting after the race that it was the right call at the moment when everyone behind them made the opposite call. Sure, maybe the conditions changed drastically but if you're unsure, you just have to wait for another lap. Maybe its face saving, but it was a clear and obvious error by everyone involved. Even Horner said after the race that "AM let them off the hook" with that decision.

https://www.racefans.net/2023/05/28/alo ... -the-hook/

They didn't have the pace but luck provided them an opportunity to win a race and they blew it. They made some questionable decisions on strategy in previous races as well but it didn't make a difference as they've been comfortably behind RBs and comfortably ahead of everyone else usually. Clearly an area that needs to be looked at for improvement.

GoranF1
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
29 May 2023, 18:46
Its weird that both AM and Fernando were insisting after the race that it was the right call at the moment when everyone behind them made the opposite call. Sure, maybe the conditions changed drastically but if you're unsure, you just have to wait for another lap. Maybe its face saving, but it was a clear and obvious error by everyone involved. Even Horner said after the race that "AM let them off the hook" with that decision.

https://www.racefans.net/2023/05/28/alo ... -the-hook/

They didn't have the pace but luck provided them an opportunity to win a race and they blew it. They made some questionable decisions on strategy in previous races as well but it didn't make a difference as they've been comfortably behind RBs and comfortably ahead of everyone else usually. Clearly an area that needs to be looked at for improvement.
I wouldn't read too much into anything that was said publicly. In public they have to defend the team and the brand. In private they can speak more freely.
A lion must kill its prey.

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mvfad
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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What do you all think about Aston Martin's upgrade development this first half? Doesn't it seem a bit slow? We are in the 7th race and I haven't seen any big improvement in the performance of the car so far. Is it still too early to draw that conclusion? :-k