2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[dialtone]

Ocon had a 4 second stop. How didn't Sainz manage the undercut?

Simple mathematics. If the car in front, with 2 seconds advantage, do a 4.something pitstop, you´d need under 2 seconds pitstop to overcut, probably closer to 1 second as his out lap will be faster with new tires

Then he did aquaplanning, but at that point the podium was out of reach thanks to Ferrari´s awesome strategy department

What? Carlos was behind. His outlap on fresh tires should have been at least a second quicker than Ocon’s pit adjusted in-lap. From that alone even without Alpines slow stop, Carlos would have been neck and neck with the Alpine on pit exit. The delay on Alpine’s pitstop should have handed the position to Carlos easily.

There was no “aquaplaning” on the outlap. The track was still dry. Sainz ruined his own race by failing to execute the undercut on Ocon even when Alpine gave up 2 seconds in the pitlane. Then he lost control later in the race because he was having to pressure Ocon instead of being ahead of him in the first place.

Has anyone asked Carlos how he managed to screw that up? Did he forget about Ocon because he knew he covered Hamilton behind?

SAI would then have to finish the race on mediums when even the hards didn’t last 40 laps.

[bosyber]

Ocon had a 4 second stop. How didn't Sainz manage the undercut?

Simple mathematics. If the car in front, with 2 seconds advantage, do a 4.something pitstop, you´d need under 2 seconds pitstop to overcut, probably closer to 1 second as his out lap will be faster with new tires

Then he did aquaplanning, but at that point the podium was out of reach thanks to Ferrari´s awesome strategy department

What? Carlos was behind. His outlap on fresh tires should have been at least a second quicker than Ocon’s pit adjusted in-lap. From that alone even without Alpines slow stop, Carlos would have been neck and neck with the Alpine on pit exit. The delay on Alpine’s pitstop should have handed the position to Carlos easily.

There was no “aquaplaning” on the outlap. The track was still dry. Sainz ruined his own race by failing to execute the undercut on Ocon even when Alpine gave up 2 seconds in the pitlane. Then he lost control later in the race because he was having to pressure Ocon instead of being ahead of him in the first place.

Has anyone asked Carlos how he managed to screw that up? Did he forget about Ocon because he knew he covered Hamilton behind?

Sainz said it himself, he wasn't interested in Hamilton but in getting past Ocon. But maybe the team was
more focused on what was behind, getting them at slightly cross purposes, which blunted both efforts?

[Xyz22]

Did you watch the race?

Sainz podium was done when Ferrari called him into pits, despite using hard tires, much earlier than other cars with medium tires. Ocon pitstop was a bit slow (4. something) so they assumed they´d pass him, despite the 2 seconds advantage before the pitstop, and obviously that was not the case and they did exit the pitlane behind Ocon again

After the race Vasseur said they were protecting from Hamilton, opposite to the radio call "pit to pass Ocon"

Basically Ferrari don´t know where their right foot is, but I know some of you will blame Sainz whatever he or the team do. Nothing new around here

Sainz was called in because he was at risk of being undercutted by Hamilton.

Shouldn't they have gambled on going for the Podium against Ocon, vs squabbling with Hamilton over P4? I thought the pit was to undercut Ocon anyway. No idea what they were discussing about Hamilton.

So why was his outlap so terrible? He had medium tires. Ocon had a 4 second stop. How didn't Sainz manage the undercut?

No the pit was not to undercut Ocon. The plan was to try and OC Ocon betting on better race pace, but the fact that Lewis went for medium tyres and started struggling quite early changed the plans. Lewis put 2 purple sectors in his out lap and did the fastest lap of the race in first flying lap after the pit stop, gaining over a 1s in just one lap on Sainz. If Sainz didn't pit, they would have lost the position to Lewis without a SC/VSC. Ferrari reacted quickly and well in this particular case.

Trust me on strategies. I have thousands of hours on GP Manager, GP World and F1 Professional

[AR3-GP]

Sainz was called in because he was at risk of being undercutted by Hamilton.

Shouldn't they have gambled on going for the Podium against Ocon, vs squabbling with Hamilton over P4? I thought the pit was to undercut Ocon anyway. No idea what they were discussing about Hamilton.

So why was his outlap so terrible? He had medium tires. Ocon had a 4 second stop. How didn't Sainz manage the undercut?

No the pit was not to undercut Ocon. The plan was to try and OC Ocon betting on better race pace, but the fact that Lewis went for medium tyres and started struggling quite early changed the plans. Lewis put 2 purple sectors in his out lap and did the fastest lap of the race in first flying lap after the pit stop, gaining over a 1s in just one lap on Sainz. If Sainz didn't pit, they would have lost the position to Lewis without a SC/VSC. Ferrari reacted quickly and well in this particular case.

Trust me on strategies. I have thousands of hours on GP Manager, GP World and F1 Professional

Yes but now why couldn't Sainz do the same to Ocon?

[dialtone]

Shouldn't they have gambled on going for the Podium against Ocon, vs squabbling with Hamilton over P4? I thought the pit was to undercut Ocon anyway. No idea what they were discussing about Hamilton.

So why was his outlap so terrible? He had medium tires. Ocon had a 4 second stop. How didn't Sainz manage the undercut?

No the pit was not to undercut Ocon. The plan was to try and OC Ocon betting on better race pace, but the fact that Lewis went for medium tyres and started struggling quite early changed the plans. Lewis put 2 purple sectors in his out lap and did the fastest lap of the race in first flying lap after the pit stop, gaining over a 1s in just one lap on Sainz. If Sainz didn't pit, they would have lost the position to Lewis without a SC/VSC. Ferrari reacted quickly and well in this particular case.

Trust me on strategies. I have thousands of hours on GP Manager, GP World and F1 Professional

Yes but now why couldn't Sainz do the same to Ocon?

He was on hards to switch to mediums, he wasn’t getting to the end of the race.

[AR3-GP]

No the pit was not to undercut Ocon. The plan was to try and OC Ocon betting on better race pace, but the fact that Lewis went for medium tyres and started struggling quite early changed the plans. Lewis put 2 purple sectors in his out lap and did the fastest lap of the race in first flying lap after the pit stop, gaining over a 1s in just one lap on Sainz. If Sainz didn't pit, they would have lost the position to Lewis without a SC/VSC. Ferrari reacted quickly and well in this particular case.

Trust me on strategies. I have thousands of hours on GP Manager, GP World and F1 Professional

Yes but now why couldn't Sainz do the same to Ocon?

He was on hards to switch to mediums, he wasn’t getting to the end of the race.

It's Monaco!

[dialtone]

Yes but now why couldn't Sainz do the same to Ocon?

He was on hards to switch to mediums, he wasn’t getting to the end of the race.

It's Monaco!

That seems neither here nor there, the medium tire wasn’t going to make it 47 laps on that Ferrari when the hard lasted barely 34-35. He would have crashed, tire would have exploded or he would have lost the rear on exit allowing an overtake on braking out of the tunnel.

These extreme strategies are exactly why their strategy is always a mess, gamble like this every race with a car so limited and you end up with lots of errors

[Rushu]

https://www.formulapassion.it/opinioni/ ... care-scuse

In Monaco Haas introduced new front suspension mechanics, suggesting that Ferrari could do the same in Barcelona. However, Vasseur was enigmatic about it, replying with a smile: "No no, we will not introduce any updates on the front suspension ". In Barcelona, ​​the old configuration will be raced again without the final chicane, increasing the loads on the tyres. However, tire degradation is not the main concern for Ferrari at the moment: “First we will have to focus on qualifying to make sure everything is working properly. Very often, however, the main problem hasn't been tire degradation, but pure performance during the race. I am confident that we will fix it with the next updates”.

[AR3-GP]

He was on hards to switch to mediums, he wasn’t getting to the end of the race.

It's Monaco!

That seems neither here nor there, the medium tire wasn’t going to make it 47 laps on that Ferrari when the hard lasted barely 34-35. He would have crashed, tire would have exploded or he would have lost the rear on exit allowing an overtake on braking out of the tunnel.

These extreme strategies are exactly why their strategy is always a mess, gamble like this every race with a car so limited and you end up with lots of errors

Is that you Mattia?

You say the Hard barely lasted 34-35 laps, but Carlos said he was fast on the hard tire and that they should not have pitted him which indicated he had plenty of tire left.

It should also be noted that Carlos pitted for Mediums the lap after Ocon...All I suggested was pitting for mediums the lap before....So it looks like Ferrari intended to do the 47 laps to the end on the medium tire with Carlos as I suspected. Overtaking is not possible.

[Andres125sx]

Ocon had a 4 second stop. How didn't Sainz manage the undercut?

Simple mathematics. If the car in front, with 2 seconds advantage, do a 4.something pitstop, you´d need under 2 seconds pitstop to undercut, probably closer to 1 second as his out lap will be faster with new tires

Then he did aquaplanning, but at that point the podium was out of reach thanks to Ferrari´s awesome strategy department

It wasn’t raining during the first stop…

Anybody said it was raining during the first stop? Not me obviously, who are you talking to exactly?

I don’t know what race you watched… he was already 3.1 sec behind OCO, thanks to losing 1s to during OCO’s inlap s2, then OCO did his stop and SAI had a bad lap in comparison with HAM doing 1:15.650 and SAI lapping 1:17.2. Ferrari was losing 1s just in S2 in those 3 laps.

This is then lap 32-34, it didn’t rain till like lap 55. On lap 45 LEC was lapping 2s slower than SAI and HAM and you all think he should have tried to go another 10 lap to gamble rain that no team predicted well?

If you don´t know what race I watched, imagine my surprise when you didn´t notice what was best strategy of the day, despite Vertappen and Russell winning and climbing to 4th position thanks to that strategy


Ferrari didn´t predict it well, but that is completely different to no team predicted well as you said. At least RBR and Mercedes predicted it, and executed it, at perfection. Despite Verstappen starting the race with medium tires while Ferrrari were using hard tires wich were the perfect choice for that strategy

GP2 strategy department

[Andres125sx]

Ocon had a 4 second stop. How didn't Sainz manage the undercut?

Simple mathematics. If the car in front, with 2 seconds advantage, do a 4.something pitstop, you´d need under 2 seconds pitstop to overcut, probably closer to 1 second as his out lap will be faster with new tires

Then he did aquaplanning, but at that point the podium was out of reach thanks to Ferrari´s awesome strategy department

What? Carlos was behind. His outlap on fresh tires should have been at least a second quicker than Ocon’s pit adjusted in-lap. From that alone even without Alpines slow stop, Carlos would have been neck and neck with the Alpine on pit exit. The delay on Alpine’s pitstop should have handed the position to Carlos easily.

There was no “aquaplaning” on the outlap. The track was still dry. Sainz ruined his own race by failing to execute the undercut on Ocon even when Alpine gave up 2 seconds in the pitlane. Then he lost control later in the race because he was having to pressure Ocon instead of being ahead of him in the first place.

Has anyone asked Carlos how he managed to screw that up? Did he forget about Ocon because he knew he covered Hamilton behind?

Guys, are you talking about 2023 Monaco GP? Really?

Carlos was on hard tires, Ocon on mediums, so Ocons did his stop sooner, as expected. How are you talking about Carlos doing his pitstop before Ocon despite reality and the tires they both were using? What alternative reality are you talking about?

When a car do a pitstop AFTER the car he´s trying to overtake, that is an overcut, not an undercut. Ferrari tried an overcut when they watched Ocon´s 4.something pitstop. But Ocon was 2-3 seconds ahead before the pitstop, so a 1-2 seconds slower than normal pitstop will never be enough for the overcut, specially if it´s an overcut, not an undercut wich takes advantage of the fresher tires, but with an overcut the fresher tires are the advantage of the rival, not yours, that´s exactly the reason undercuts are usually more efective than overcuts

I get some fans don´t understand these things, but Ferrari should master them, and reality is they look like amateurs, making mistakes wich not even some amateurs would do

[Andres125sx]

Sainz was called in because he was at risk of being undercutted by Hamilton.

Shouldn't they have gambled on going for the Podium against Ocon, vs squabbling with Hamilton over P4? I thought the pit was to undercut Ocon anyway. No idea what they were discussing about Hamilton.

So why was his outlap so terrible? He had medium tires. Ocon had a 4 second stop. How didn't Sainz manage the undercut?

No the pit was not to undercut Ocon. The plan was to try and OC Ocon betting on better race pace, but the fact that Lewis went for medium tyres and started struggling quite early changed the plans. Lewis put 2 purple sectors in his out lap and did the fastest lap of the race in first flying lap after the pit stop, gaining over a 1s in just one lap on Sainz. If Sainz didn't pit, they would have lost the position to Lewis without a SC/VSC. Ferrari reacted quickly and well in this particular case.

Trust me on strategies. I have thousands of hours on GP Manager, GP World and F1 Professional

Sorry if I don´t trust a gamer as a good F1 strategist, but I don´t

Lewis being faster with fresher and softer (faster) tires shouldn´t surprise anyone, that´s exactly main problem when starting the race with hard compounds, but that´s something all they know. That is the weak point of that strategy, the strong point is he will waste the tires soon, while the car wich started the race with hard compounds will do the pitstop much later, so at the end of the race he will have much fresher tires, and maybe he could even use softer compound, then he will have a chance to pass, even in Monaco

That is a normal scenario for a dry race, but if rain was a posibility, then waiting for a later pitsotp is even more important and an even bigger advantage, as they could have saved 1 pitstop and switch to inters directly. A win-win stratey, but Ferrari took the weak part of that strategy (slower on first stint due to hard compounds), and at the same time the weak point of the opposite strategy (do the pitstop soon, miss the opportunity to save 1 pitstop)

Ferrari is very prone to overreact to rivals strategies, maybe that´s the reason they try to fool their rivals with fake pitcalls, they think every team is as naive as theirselves. But they´re not, teams usually stick to their initial plans, only Ferrari ruin their own strategies with wrong pitcall when their rivals do what they´re suppossed to do

[Xyz22]

Shouldn't they have gambled on going for the Podium against Ocon, vs squabbling with Hamilton over P4? I thought the pit was to undercut Ocon anyway. No idea what they were discussing about Hamilton.

So why was his outlap so terrible? He had medium tires. Ocon had a 4 second stop. How didn't Sainz manage the undercut?

No the pit was not to undercut Ocon. The plan was to try and OC Ocon betting on better race pace, but the fact that Lewis went for medium tyres and started struggling quite early changed the plans. Lewis put 2 purple sectors in his out lap and did the fastest lap of the race in first flying lap after the pit stop, gaining over a 1s in just one lap on Sainz. If Sainz didn't pit, they would have lost the position to Lewis without a SC/VSC. Ferrari reacted quickly and well in this particular case.

Trust me on strategies. I have thousands of hours on GP Manager, GP World and F1 Professional

Sorry if I don´t trust a gamer as a good F1 strategist, but I don´t

Lewis being faster with fresher and softer (faster) tires shouldn´t surprise anyone, that´s exactly main problem when starting the race with hard compounds, but that´s something all they know. That is the weak point of that strategy, the strong point is he will waste the tires soon, while the car wich started the race with hard compounds will do the pitstop much later, so at the end of the race he will have much fresher tires, and maybe he could even use softer compound, then he will have a chance to pass, even in Monaco

That is a normal scenario for a dry race, but if rain was a posibility, then waiting for a later pitsotp is even more important and an even bigger advantage, as they could have saved 1 pitstop and switch to inters directly. A win-win stratey, but Ferrari took the weak part of that strategy (slower on first stint due to hard compounds), and at the same time the weak point of the opposite strategy (do the pitstop soon, miss the opportunity to save 1 pitstop)

Ferrari is very prone to overreact to rivals strategies, maybe that´s the reason they try to fool their rivals with fake pitcalls, they think every team is as naive as theirselves. But they´re not, teams usually stick to their initial plans, only Ferrari ruin their own strategies with wrong pitcall when their rivals do what they´re suppossed to do

There is no way to pass in Monaco with a 2s pace advantage, probably even 3.

[Andres125sx]

There is no way to pass in Monaco with a 2s pace advantage, probably even 3.

Not accurate, it will depend on many things. If the pace advantage is due to car potential, probably not. But if it's due to tire difference with softer and fresher compounds, there's a chance, since traction at the exit of corners will be massively better

And that is on a normal (dry) race, when there is a chance of rain, all those arguments are secondary and delaying the pitstop as much as possible is key

Ask Mercedes or RBR, that's what they did, even when they were NOT using hard tires as Ferrari and we're forced to lengthen the medium stint more than recommended

Ferrari was on hards, but even when they were using the perfect tire for that strategy, didn't take advantage of it


Basically RBR and Mercedes did start the race with subpar strategy (hindsight) but adapted during the race and did beat their rivals. Ferrari OTOH did start the race with the perfect strategy, but managed to ruin it during the race

[Xyz22]

If you say so