2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

[KimiRai]

I'm just happy Lawrence signed the cheque before the cost cap, that's all haha.

[diffuser]

It's a failure because it did not recognise this issue from the start. The time taken for the likes of Williams to get permission adds to their performance deficit relative to the rich teams and thus means the rich teams benefit further - in direct opposition to what the cost cap is intended for.

And your analogy is so crass as to not warrant further comment.

If the shoe fits....

You can't think of everything. It isn't any different to new regulations. There are always teams that find ways around the regs. When the teams do, F1 discuss it, sometimes they chose to update the regs, sometimes they don't.

They might have just said, lets lock everything down now and we'll deal with teams that lack infrastructure on a team per team basis. There is a process in place to make a request after all.

I'm pretty sure a few of us here said this would be exactly the outcome in 2021...

And they're dealing with it.

I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?

The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.

The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.

[Zynerji]

If the shoe fits....

You can't think of everything. It isn't any different to new regulations. There are always teams that find ways around the regs. When the teams do, F1 discuss it, sometimes they chose to update the regs, sometimes they don't.

They might have just said, lets lock everything down now and we'll deal with teams that lack infrastructure on a team per team basis. There is a process in place to make a request after all.

I'm pretty sure a few of us here said this would be exactly the outcome in 2021...

And they're dealing with it.

I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?

The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.

The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive environment. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.

They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just one manipulative device after another .

[AR3-GP]

I'm pretty sure a few of us here said this would be exactly the outcome in 2021...

And they're dealing with it.

I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?

The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.

The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive system. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.

They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just another manipulative device like the last one.

The teams agreed to this. It doesn't make sense to be aggrieved on their behalf when they are the ones who are responsible for it.

[Zynerji]

And they're dealing with it.

I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?

The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.

The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive system. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.

They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just another manipulative device like the last one.

The teams agreed to this. It doesn't make sense to be aggrieved on their behalf when they are the ones who are responsible for it.

I'm sure Williams said that they wouldn't sign unless RBR/Ferrari/ Mercedes gave up their infrastructure advantage!

They had no choice but to agree. It's a bully pulpit of a vote.

[diffuser]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive system. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.

They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just another manipulative device like the last one.

The teams agreed to this. It doesn't make sense to be aggrieved on their behalf when they are the ones who are responsible for it.

I'm sure Williams said that they wouldn't sign unless RBR/Ferrari/ Mercedes gave up their infrastructure advantage!

They had no choice but to agree. It's a bully pulpit of a vote.

Nope but it makes sense, if you're Williams, to stop the increasing infrastructure spread and worry about the catching up later. So if nothing else, it isn't getting worse.

They could have bought the Formula 1 group BEFORE Liberty Media did. They could have refused the yearly Bonus payouts they're getting for just being in F1!

Almost every Sports League have a CAP. Arguably, the Stronger the CAP the more successful the League with the NFL leading the way in both success and CAP strength. Arguably the CAP is a Self-balancing system, it gets recalculated and it insures that everyone has route to profitability.

Anyways, the idea that the Williams infrastructure deficit is being further hampered by the CAP is absolutely incorrect. They are struggling to come up with $300 Million for the infrastructure upgrades, Imagine coming up with an extra $300 Million, every year, just to keep up with the chassis spending of the top 3 teams. Williams doesn't have the Car company or Drink Company where they can right off the ton of Money they pour into F1 as Advertising.

[Juzh]

Another example of why the cost cap is a failure. The idea of the cost cap was to make it possible for less well funded teams to compete with the well funded teams. But the less well funded teams are always going to be hamstrung because they can't develop their infrastructure to compete.

Translation for anyone not in the loop:
mercedes is sh*t, therefore rules in their entirety are a failure.

Same crap as that "wec has the right ruleset" nonsense thread pushing for BOP in f1, only difference that one is coming from ferrari's corner. hahahahah.....

[Just_a_fan]

Another example of why the cost cap is a failure. The idea of the cost cap was to make it possible for less well funded teams to compete with the well funded teams. But the less well funded teams are always going to be hamstrung because they can't develop their infrastructure to compete.

Translation for anyone not in the loop:
mercedes is sh*t, therefore rules in their entirety are a failure.

Same crap as that "wec has the right ruleset" nonsense thread pushing for BOP in f1, only difference that one is coming from ferrari's corner. hahahahah.....

Er, your translation matrix is well off base there. The issue is that the smaller teams can't spend money on their facilities. Mercedes have top drawer facilities so if they struggle it's down to their use of them.

Oh, and nice straw man you have there. Do you use him to scare birds?

[Juzh]

Another example of why the cost cap is a failure. The idea of the cost cap was to make it possible for less well funded teams to compete with the well funded teams. But the less well funded teams are always going to be hamstrung because they can't develop their infrastructure to compete.

Translation for anyone not in the loop:
mercedes is sh*t, therefore rules in their entirety are a failure.

Same crap as that "wec has the right ruleset" nonsense thread pushing for BOP in f1, only difference that one is coming from ferrari's corner. hahahahah.....

Er, your translation matrix is well off base there. The issue is that the smaller teams can't spend money on their facilities. Mercedes have top drawer facilities so if they struggle it's down to their use of them.

Oh, and nice straw man you have there. Do you use him to scare birds?

I know full well what your underlying intention is. Mercedes can't spend a gazillion dollars to dig themselves out the mess they created for themselves, and this pains mercedes and their fans to no end. For example without the cap I'm 100% we'd seen a new chassis in line with Hamilton's wishes long ago, but alas there isn't one due to costs. This whole CAP EXP thing is just a convenient way of spinning the whole narrative in direction of supposed cost cap failure to achieve their main goal, which of course is to somehow loosen the cap, or even get rid of it (will not happen ofcourse). Not to mention teams are becoming profitable finally and reaching billion dollar valuations, in large part thank to the cap. Capital expenditure limits will eventually be sorted out and that will be it. It does not mean cap itself is a failure, not at all.

[Just_a_fan]

Translation for anyone not in the loop:
mercedes is sh*t, therefore rules in their entirety are a failure.

Same crap as that "wec has the right ruleset" nonsense thread pushing for BOP in f1, only difference that one is coming from ferrari's corner. hahahahah.....

Er, your translation matrix is well off base there. The issue is that the smaller teams can't spend money on their facilities. Mercedes have top drawer facilities so if they struggle it's down to their use of them.

Oh, and nice straw man you have there. Do you use him to scare birds?

I know full well what your underlying intention is. Mercedes can't spend a gazillion dollars to dig themselves out the mess they created for themselves, and this pains mercedes and their fans to no end.

Wrong. I was very specific about teams like Williams continuing to be disadvantaged even though the cap was intended to help teams like them.

As for Mercedes, they messed up and are engineering their way back again. If / when they get back to competing for titles, it will be all the sweeter for them and their fans.

[zoroastar]

i doubt williams think the cost cap is a failure. only a pessimist or a mad mercedes fan would think that. you can pick apart all the bad things that have yet to get ironed out, but no team is being outspent by 300 million a year now, and ALL of the grid is closer than anytime i can remember in general. at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel for williams now. its just gonna take a little time.

[diffuser]

i doubt williams think the cost cap is a failure. only a pessimist or a mad mercedes fan would think that. you can pick apart all the bad things that have yet to get ironed out, but no team is being outspent by 300 million a year now, and ALL of the grid is closer than anytime i can remember in general. at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel for williams now. its just gonna take a little time.

Agreed!

[peewon]

I'm pretty sure a few of us here said this would be exactly the outcome in 2021...

And they're dealing with it.

I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?

The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.

The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive environment. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.

They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just one manipulative device after another .

The cost cap is a product of a self-balancing system. It produced the cost cap because it was not sustainable without it. And if you feel smaller teams got arm twisted into making this choice, then bigger teams having more leverage was the hallmark of the old system. It levels the playing field in a much better way than spec series. Like introduction of weight classes in boxing. Its a necessary evolution of the sport. Its not perfect nor free of unintended consequences, but they can be ironed out over time. Its an improvement and a step in the right direction.

[Zynerji]

And they're dealing with it.

I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?

The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.

The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive environment. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.

They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just one manipulative device after another .

The cost cap is a product of a self-balancing system. It produced the cost cap because it was not sustainable without it. And if you feel smaller teams got arm twisted into making this choice, then bigger teams having more leverage was the hallmark of the old system. It levels the playing field in a much better way than spec series. Like introduction of weight classes in boxing. Its a necessary evolution of the sport. Its not perfect nor free of unintended consequences, but they can be ironed out over time. Its an improvement and a step in the right direction.

Like always. Half-baked with built in advantages for a few.

[NAPI10]

AM is struggling here ; almost half a second down on a such a small track.