And they're dealing with it.Zynerji wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 05:25I'm pretty sure a few of us here said this would be exactly the outcome in 2021...diffuser wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 03:27If the shoe fits....Just_a_fan wrote: ↑27 Jun 2023, 21:35
It's a failure because it did not recognise this issue from the start. The time taken for the likes of Williams to get permission adds to their performance deficit relative to the rich teams and thus means the rich teams benefit further - in direct opposition to what the cost cap is intended for.
And your analogy is so crass as to not warrant further comment.
You can't think of everything. It isn't any different to new regulations. There are always teams that find ways around the regs. When the teams do, F1 discuss it, sometimes they chose to update the regs, sometimes they don't.
They might have just said, lets lock everything down now and we'll deal with teams that lack infrastructure on a team per team basis. There is a process in place to make a request after all.
I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive environment. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.diffuser wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 14:40And they're dealing with it.Zynerji wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 05:25I'm pretty sure a few of us here said this would be exactly the outcome in 2021...diffuser wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 03:27
If the shoe fits....
You can't think of everything. It isn't any different to new regulations. There are always teams that find ways around the regs. When the teams do, F1 discuss it, sometimes they chose to update the regs, sometimes they don't.
They might have just said, lets lock everything down now and we'll deal with teams that lack infrastructure on a team per team basis. There is a process in place to make a request after all.
I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?
The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.
The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.
The teams agreed to this. It doesn't make sense to be aggrieved on their behalf when they are the ones who are responsible for it.Zynerji wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 15:27I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive system. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.diffuser wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 14:40And they're dealing with it.
I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?
The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.
The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.
They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just another manipulative device like the last one.
I'm sure Williams said that they wouldn't sign unless RBR/Ferrari/ Mercedes gave up their infrastructure advantage!AR3-GP wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 15:29The teams agreed to this. It doesn't make sense to be aggrieved on their behalf when they are the ones who are responsible for it.Zynerji wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 15:27I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive system. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.diffuser wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 14:40
And they're dealing with it.
I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?
The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.
The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.
They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just another manipulative device like the last one.
Nope but it makes sense, if you're Williams, to stop the increasing infrastructure spread and worry about the catching up later. So if nothing else, it isn't getting worse.Zynerji wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 15:31I'm sure Williams said that they wouldn't sign unless RBR/Ferrari/ Mercedes gave up their infrastructure advantage!AR3-GP wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 15:29The teams agreed to this. It doesn't make sense to be aggrieved on their behalf when they are the ones who are responsible for it.Zynerji wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 15:27
I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive system. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.
They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just another manipulative device like the last one.
They had no choice but to agree. It's a bully pulpit of a vote.
Translation for anyone not in the loop:Just_a_fan wrote: ↑27 Jun 2023, 19:46Another example of why the cost cap is a failure. The idea of the cost cap was to make it possible for less well funded teams to compete with the well funded teams. But the less well funded teams are always going to be hamstrung because they can't develop their infrastructure to compete.
Er, your translation matrix is well off base there. The issue is that the smaller teams can't spend money on their facilities. Mercedes have top drawer facilities so if they struggle it's down to their use of them.Juzh wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 17:37Translation for anyone not in the loop:Just_a_fan wrote: ↑27 Jun 2023, 19:46Another example of why the cost cap is a failure. The idea of the cost cap was to make it possible for less well funded teams to compete with the well funded teams. But the less well funded teams are always going to be hamstrung because they can't develop their infrastructure to compete.
mercedes is sh*t, therefore rules in their entirety are a failure.
Same crap as that "wec has the right ruleset" nonsense thread pushing for BOP in f1, only difference that one is coming from ferrari's corner. hahahahah.....
I know full well what your underlying intention is. Mercedes can't spend a gazillion dollars to dig themselves out the mess they created for themselves, and this pains mercedes and their fans to no end. For example without the cap I'm 100% we'd seen a new chassis in line with Hamilton's wishes long ago, but alas there isn't one due to costs. This whole CAP EXP thing is just a convenient way of spinning the whole narrative in direction of supposed cost cap failure to achieve their main goal, which of course is to somehow loosen the cap, or even get rid of it (will not happen ofcourse). Not to mention teams are becoming profitable finally and reaching billion dollar valuations, in large part thank to the cap. Capital expenditure limits will eventually be sorted out and that will be it. It does not mean cap itself is a failure, not at all.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 17:41Er, your translation matrix is well off base there. The issue is that the smaller teams can't spend money on their facilities. Mercedes have top drawer facilities so if they struggle it's down to their use of them.Juzh wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 17:37Translation for anyone not in the loop:Just_a_fan wrote: ↑27 Jun 2023, 19:46
Another example of why the cost cap is a failure. The idea of the cost cap was to make it possible for less well funded teams to compete with the well funded teams. But the less well funded teams are always going to be hamstrung because they can't develop their infrastructure to compete.
mercedes is sh*t, therefore rules in their entirety are a failure.
Same crap as that "wec has the right ruleset" nonsense thread pushing for BOP in f1, only difference that one is coming from ferrari's corner. hahahahah.....
Oh, and nice straw man you have there. Do you use him to scare birds?
Wrong. I was very specific about teams like Williams continuing to be disadvantaged even though the cap was intended to help teams like them.Juzh wrote: ↑29 Jun 2023, 00:02I know full well what your underlying intention is. Mercedes can't spend a gazillion dollars to dig themselves out the mess they created for themselves, and this pains mercedes and their fans to no end.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 17:41Er, your translation matrix is well off base there. The issue is that the smaller teams can't spend money on their facilities. Mercedes have top drawer facilities so if they struggle it's down to their use of them.
Oh, and nice straw man you have there. Do you use him to scare birds?
Agreed!zoroastar wrote: ↑30 Jun 2023, 02:37i doubt williams think the cost cap is a failure. only a pessimist or a mad mercedes fan would think that. you can pick apart all the bad things that have yet to get ironed out, but no team is being outspent by 300 million a year now, and ALL of the grid is closer than anytime i can remember in general. at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel for williams now. its just gonna take a little time.
The cost cap is a product of a self-balancing system. It produced the cost cap because it was not sustainable without it. And if you feel smaller teams got arm twisted into making this choice, then bigger teams having more leverage was the hallmark of the old system. It levels the playing field in a much better way than spec series. Like introduction of weight classes in boxing. Its a necessary evolution of the sport. Its not perfect nor free of unintended consequences, but they can be ironed out over time. Its an improvement and a step in the right direction.Zynerji wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 15:27I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive environment. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.diffuser wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 14:40And they're dealing with it.
I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?
The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.
The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.
They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just one manipulative device after another .
Like always. Half-baked with built in advantages for a few.peewon wrote: ↑30 Jun 2023, 05:07The cost cap is a product of a self-balancing system. It produced the cost cap because it was not sustainable without it. And if you feel smaller teams got arm twisted into making this choice, then bigger teams having more leverage was the hallmark of the old system. It levels the playing field in a much better way than spec series. Like introduction of weight classes in boxing. Its a necessary evolution of the sport. Its not perfect nor free of unintended consequences, but they can be ironed out over time. Its an improvement and a step in the right direction.Zynerji wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 15:27I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Self-balancing systems are the only sure way to ensure fairness in a competitive environment. I have never seen a system that weights the scale that doesn't produce side-effects and controversy.diffuser wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 14:40
And they're dealing with it.
I can't see how going back helps when the top 3 were spending over 500 million a year just on chassis. How does that help Williams? In that CAPless scenario they have to find the money to rebuild the infrastructure plus an extra $300 million a year to compete. How do you get a loan when you're bleeding money year after year?
The CAP was listed as one if the reason for both Audi and Stroll joining F1.
The CAP isn't perfect but it definitely a resounding success.
They could have fixed this, once and for all, but nope. Just one manipulative device after another .