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So i was able to watch quite a lot of onboards from the race. The understeer of the SF 23 is still massive. Leclerc was struggling so much to rotate the car out of the corners. It seems Sainz can deal with this limitation in a better way at the moment. I have no idea what Mercedes and AM did to perform that badly in this track, by the way.
Doesn't sound good. Why is understeer so hard to eradicate from the cars in general?
I'm surprised that LEC is doing as well as he is in this car.
He did say he was more comfortable with it after the race, so imagine how bad it must've been prior to the upgrades.
Ferrari specifically is just so much more limited at the front compared to the RB and their own car from last season as you can see from this
The speed difference in turn 8 and 9 is mental.
I'm now watching Sainz vs Norris in the last stint and Lando was quicker than Sainz in turn 8 and 9. Unbeliavable.
Apologies to all on this thread for adding to the clutter of these silly discussions, but just need to say something after continuously reading all these.
First of all, Sainz is a very good and very fast driver… but he’s not as fast as Leclerc. On MOST weekends, Charles will be the faster driver. Sure, occasionally Leclerc will have an off weekend, or Sainz will be slightly faster… heck, Stroll out-qualified Alonzo this weekend, AND came out ahead of him in the sprint, but no one will argue anything there. Even Perez has beaten Max on occasion. All irrelevant.
Secondly, all the really feel-good moments that have happened in the last 3 years, save for Vettels win in Singapore, have come from Charles. His first win in Belgium that gave us Tifosi hope, Fighting off Hamilton to bring home Ferrari’s first win on home soil in almost a decade, the battles with Verstappen and wins last year, all those on-the-edge pole positions; I think Leclerc has earned the right to get the first calls with the team. Sainz’ lone career win came with controversy.
I like Carlos, but until he does something to “earn” the right to get the preferential calls, things won’t, and shouldn’t, change.
Ferrari's still generating floor downforce in a way that also leads to the most bouncing, so it's hard to judge the ride height based on this. On the other hand, they were great in S2 in Q, but Max blew them away in S2 in the Race. So the core issue of ride height sensitivity at the start of the race compared to the leading car on the grid is still very much present.
Funny enough, Leclerc had a very comparable stint 3 on Hards vs Max' stint 2 on Hards, with fuel load offset of course - so when the car is lighter and takes the corners faster it drops down more than RB (which is already as low as possible) and gains extra downforce that way. It will be interesting to see if they keep the classic Venturi floor or they try something different already later this season.
First of all, Max still seemed faster by 0.3-0.5s correcting for fuel load on the hards. Secondly, he didn't need to push, but to just manage the pace until Leclerc's last stop. Leclerc however had to push on the hards a bit as he was expecting a challenge from Perez. Finally, one relative weakness of the RB compared to others is the understeer on hards. Whether it is car or setup related I don't know, but we saw it in many races, Canada and now also Austria. A bit similar to last year although with the RB19 they have dialled most of it out.
From what I've read this morning, seems Ferrari has made significant progress in reducing or eliminating the porpoising with all the latest upgrades. This is allowing them a bigger setup window with a lower ride height. This is good news.
Additionally, there are reports they are bringing in a new diffuser to Silverstone. Along with the new Pirelli tyres, I'm becoming more and more optimistic as the season progresses.
You can really see the limitations of this car in the telemetry, not only against RB, but also the 2022 car.
That's hardly a fair comparison. Conditions where much better for Mediums in 2022 and Leclerc was attacking Max from the start. This year he was saving the Mediums in both stints. We can compare laps 51 of both races, in 2022 those Hards (3rd stint) were on their 2nd lap and this year on their 4th lap, so it's quite comparable. In this case, 2022 car is actually slightly slower in S2 and S3 which is well within regular apex speed differences for the same car across the same race. Austria was still before TD39 hit, we will have an appropriate comparison of both cars only in Spa and later races, when F1-75 had to be run higher and lost a decent amount of downforce because of it.
When we look at what Max was doing on his Hards in the 2nd stint this year, it's hard not to see those tyres were working much better than Mediums on Sunday.
And even with those mistakes, he still is up in the table. That is not luck, even if you can only attribute Sainz merits to luck , it is not the case, he´s up in the table on merit, and deserves a respect. But for some reason you are unable to provide a minimum respect to one Ferrari driver, while at the same time you invent excuses for every mistake the other Ferrari driver do
Ferrari (Xavi+reliability) cost Leclerc at least 3 more podiums and at least of 52 points. As a result, Sainz gained 4 points and had his chances to get another podium and 27 more points because of Leclec's misfortune - but he made amateur mistakes and lost them. He also lost 7 more points and a podium all on his own yesterday. He's insanely lucky to be in front. Or it's a Spanish connection with Xavi, powered by Santander
I said he had a good race on Saturday. It was the only good race of his this year.
Any reason you only consider Ferrari mistakes wich were costly for Lecrerc, but not any of those costly for Sainz?
Ferrari did put Xavi as Lecrerc engineer to sabotage Lecrerc and favour Sainz, sure
On lap 17 he did pass Norris.
On lap 19 he did pass Hamilton
On lap 20 he did pass Perez!!
So he did recover 3rd position
He passed two cars on harder tyres and one car on completely shot, 20-lap old tyres. Good for him
I was not praising Sainz, I was only pointing he actually passed one Mercedes, one McLaren and one RBR, as your previous statement looked like sarcasm mocking Sainz for not passing Mecerdes and Mclaren, when he actually did it quite easily
Not being fast enough to overtake even with DRS is not the same as being prohibitted to overtake, it's worth knowing the difference. Ferrari was a better car than Mercedes and McLaren today and Sainz was able to overtake them easily, didn't he?
If he was able to pass RBR, I guess he could pass Ferrari... if he was allowed, but that was not the case, he received TOs to not try a pass on Lecrerc, despite he was leading the table, and actually he still leads
Even so he made some mistakes and Lecrerc deserves his final position, but at that point in the race, there was no reason to provide TOs and deprive theirselves from a small but real chance to fight for victory. I don´t think they had any real chance, but it´s first time I see a F1 team ignoring the chance for victory when they start the race 2nd and 3rd, as that provides a huge advantage to push the leader, split strategies, and force the leader to make a perfect race. Wich btw he didn´t, as not pitting under VSC was a huge mistake for RBR, but Ferrari deprived theirselves from any chance to victory
He was attacking Leclerc in spite of team's agreement and was able to keep up only because of DRS and Leclerc managing tyres. Perez on shot 20-lap-old tyres has nothing in common with Leclerc on same tyres - even when he was managing tyres
False again. When did he attack Lecrerc? Please tell me one single attack Sainz did on Lecrerc
This thread is becoming Sainz bashing thread, with false information repeated ad nauseam, in a desperate attempt to prove Lecrerc is faster, better, more consistent, a team player, kinder with kids, handsome, best dad of the year and obviously deserve #1 treatment because Sainz is not a team player , is not fast enough, is not consistent enough, eat kids at brekfast and should be grateful Ferrari consider him #2
There´s no better team player than Sainz in F1. He obey TOs even when his teammate do not (thinking about Max in STR, not about Lecrerc), he provides an aid in form of a slipstream on tracks like Monza, even when his teammate do not (Lecrerc in this case), he never say anything publicly wich could harm the team, he provides consistent points for the team to fight for upper positions... he always do everything you could expect from a team player, and even more
What else do you expect from Sainz, Vanja? What else does he need to do to stop this unnecessary bashing?
Any reason you only consider Ferrari mistakes wich were costly for Lecrerc, but not any of those costly for Sainz?
Yes, the reason is - there were none. Adami is spot on this year, like he was with Vettel all the time. Sainz didn't even suffer from any reliability trouble. It's called luck.
Ferrari did put Xavi as Lecrerc engineer to sabotage Lecrerc and favour Sainz, sure
You complained why I call it luck. I explained why it's luck and offered the only explanation on why it wouldn't be a good luck for Sainz - no matter how obviously bizarre.
I was only pointing he actually passed one Mercedes, one McLaren and one RBR, as your previous statement looked like sarcasm mocking Sainz for not passing Mecerdes and Mclaren, when he actually did it quite easily
I literally wrote "Sainz was able to overtake them easily" Common man, start reading before replying
What else does he need to do to stop this unnecessary bashing?
It's not bashing, it's pointing out at his mistakes. We all do it all the time (including you) when Ferrari makes a mistake on any race or with the car, why should Sainz be spared? The whole team cost themselves 50+ points with many errors that cost Leclerc, while Sainz cost himself and the team 34 points on his own. All of those 80+ points in just 9 races, that's dreadful!
My apologies to other members for dragging this topic on and on, but for me there are no sacred cows here - if the team is criticised when deserved, the drivers will be as well.
On another note, both Ferrari’s (and interestingly Sainz even more) were the only cars scraping the floor throughout the complete main straight. Can we suggest that Ferrari is able to run the floor so low and have no issues anymore?
Ferrari's still generating floor downforce in a way that also leads to the most bouncing, so it's hard to judge the ride height based on this. On the other hand, they were great in S2 in Q, but Max blew them away in S2 in the Race. So the core issue of ride height sensitivity at the start of the race compared to the leading car on the grid is still very much present.
Funny enough, Leclerc had a very comparable stint 3 on Hards vs Max' stint 2 on Hards, with fuel load offset of course - so when the car is lighter and takes the corners faster it drops down more than RB (which is already as low as possible) and gains extra downforce that way. It will be interesting to see if they keep the classic Venturi floor or they try something different already later this season.
It surely will be interesting to see if they keep the classic Venturi floor. I'm far away from being an expert, but I've the feeling it would be their only realistic way to beat RBR anytime soon. I don't think RBR will be beaten with their own weapons - they've been fine tuning this concept for 1.5 years now and will continue doing it so in the next years.
So if Ferrari manages to make their current concept floor work in a balanced way and improve their race pace this way, we might have a proper title fight in hand for next year or the year after. It might sound optimistic, but we know how quickly things can change when a team finally starts unlocking the potential of the car, which has not been the case for Ferrari until recently.
What would you do - abandon the classic Venturi floor or stick to the concept?
It surely will be interesting to see if they keep the classic Venturi floor. I'm far away from being an expert, but I've the feeling it would be their only realistic way to beat RBR anytime soon. I don't think RBR will be beaten with their own weapons - they've been fine tuning this concept for 1.5 years now and will continue doing it so in the next years.
So if Ferrari manages to make their current concept floor work in a balanced way and improve their race pace this way, we might have a proper title fight in hand for next year or the year after. It might sound optimistic, but we know how quickly things can change when a team finally starts unlocking the potential of the car, which has not been the case for Ferrari until recently.
What would you do - abandon the classic Venturi floor or stick to the concept?
I think they will be better off if they stick to their own floor development path. I believe they have a lot of room for improvement in various areas of the floor, but need to work further on suspension to keep it lower at the start of the race. Another point too - should they choose to go with elongated sidepod inlets like RB (a path they seem to have now taken) and move the SIS tube to the floor, they will reduce the chassis drag a bit. This will allow them to run more wing(s) and end up with about the same drag as they now have, so that could be some amount of extra downforce.
Another point too - should they choose to go with elongated sidepod inlets like RB (a path they seem to have now taken) and move the SIS tube to the floor, they will reduce the chassis drag a bit.
You think the Ferrari sidepod was draggier? I know this was a subject of lengthy debate last season
