2023 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 07 - 09

[chrisc90]

What laps were they on about average pace with each other? From memory, can’t remember that happening

[Cs98]

The McLaren was on the racing line and thus in the tow of Verstappen, Lewis was off to the side and not getting a good tow. We also don't know how much energy they had at the time.

The affect of tow at that distance would be minimal, i would argue non-existent.

In the scenario where Norris out dragged Hamilton was nothing to do with a tow from ver. Hamilton had the rear wing open anyway.

Also being alongside a car like that also affects the downforce of bother cars, in GT racing the aerodynamics allow for a side-tow affect, where you can approach the car on its rear quarter and gain a tow affect due to the dirty air coming out from the side of the car.

I think you are trying to make excuses for an utterly slow mercedes. Hamilton had everything on his side and the McLaren simply outclassed that car in everyway that matters.

The tow is very present when another car is less than 3 seconds ahead, Max was 2,5.

"In the scenario where Norris out dragged Hamilton was nothing to do with a tow from ver. Hamilton had the rear wing open anyway".
It wasn't in a DRS zone.

You can try to argue simple facts as much as you want. The Merc was consistently 2-3kph faster on the straights when in free air. Go argue with the telemetry instead of coming in here with lazy arguments and doing no work. I've actually looked at the data and formed an opinion. You're being lazy.

[Francis Bacon]

I'm thinking....

2024
Lando to RBR, and Lewis comes home to McL to retire.

Lando would be mad to move to RBR, frankly.

Lewis is either at Merc or retired. I don't see why he'd go to McLaren nor why would want to replace a young gun with a veteran.

Mad to go to a winning team? Saying such things is madness...

I think you're being sarcastic, but in case you're not, I do think it would be madness. There's something toxic about the environment and culture for any driver who isn't Max.

[Willy]

Lando would be mad to move to RBR, frankly.

Lewis is either at Merc or retired. I don't see why he'd go to McLaren nor why would want to replace a young gun with a veteran.

Mad to go to a winning team? Saying such things is madness...

I think you're being sarcastic, but in case you're not, I do think it would be madness. There's something toxic about the environment and culture for any driver who isn't Max.

Any talented driver on the grid has two choices when a Red Bull offer comes in current circumstances where Red Bull has the winning car. He can either take it and test himself regardless of odds or think it's Max's team, I won't go and sit waiting for my own team to produce a winning car that can beat Red Bull.

Fortunately, Lando is not an internet forum member, but a racing driver brought up to think he is the best and compete against the established best under all circumstances and win. That desire outwits any fear of other driver in the team and his established relationship in that team.

[ringo]

Merc was faster than McL in the speed trap during quali and in the race stints on the straight (when both in free air).

It was too slow in the race. Remember you have to look on the situation not what you see in practice. In the race you have to follow in dirty air and there's also a car on the line which you cannot occupy because you are racing him.
There was no way past for Lewis.
If we look at even the earlier laps of the race, cars were circulating and not being able to overtake. This technical regulation has produced close racing but it has turned some tracks to hard to overtake tracks, most notably this one. Look on Russel vs leclecr or Piastri.
And russel is a good racer. There are other examples too such as Perez.
Hamilton is experienced enough to know where he can overtake and keep the position. Lando could not be passed in a much faster car for many obvious reasons.

I'm not talking about practice. I'm talking about race telemetry showing the Merc was consistently around 2-3kph faster than the Macca on the straights (in free air). The narrative that the Merc is some drag monster is outdated.

If we're talking overall race pace then yes I'd agree the Macca was marginally faster. But Lewis had the preferred tyre for the restart which more than off-set that pace advantage.

Okay so why do you think he did not overtake then? He was incompetent right? Lol
Hamilton just fluffed it as usual, like he had for the past 16 years.

Empirically the car was not fast enough to overtake. We all saw that with our eyes live. DRS open and still no good run.
He was outdragged.
Also high speed corner exit of the mclaren could not he matched by mercedes, worse in the tow.
It is what it is, regardless of what you saw in the telemetry.

[AR3-GP]

It was too slow in the race. Remember you have to look on the situation not what you see in practice. In the race you have to follow in dirty air and there's also a car on the line which you cannot occupy because you are racing him.
There was no way past for Lewis.
If we look at even the earlier laps of the race, cars were circulating and not being able to overtake. This technical regulation has produced close racing but it has turned some tracks to hard to overtake tracks, most notably this one. Look on Russel vs leclecr or Piastri.
And russel is a good racer. There are other examples too such as Perez.
Hamilton is experienced enough to know where he can overtake and keep the position. Lando could not be passed in a much faster car for many obvious reasons.

I'm not talking about practice. I'm talking about race telemetry showing the Merc was consistently around 2-3kph faster than the Macca on the straights (in free air). The narrative that the Merc is some drag monster is outdated.

If we're talking overall race pace then yes I'd agree the Macca was marginally faster. But Lewis had the preferred tyre for the restart which more than off-set that pace advantage.

Okay so why do you think he did not overtake then? He was incompetent right? Lol
Hamilton just fluffed it as usual, like he had for the past 16 years.

Empirically the car was not fast enough to overtake. We all saw that with our eyes live. DRS open and still no good run.
He was outdragged.
Also high speed corner exit of the mclaren could not he matched by mercedes, worse in the tow.
It is what it is, regardless of what you saw in the telemetry.

He didn't overtake because Norris defended for his life. It reminded me of Verstappen vs Rosberg in Canada '16. At the point that Hamilton had faster tires, Norris simply defended for his life with perfect placement and no mistakes anywhere. Eventually Hamilton's tires were destroyed and he could no longer attack.

[ringo]

How does "defending for you life" equate to not being overtaken with DRS with rules requiring you to leave a car's width?
Let's face the obvious even with DRS and Soft tyres hamilton had zero advantage over Norris even if Norris chose not to defend.
A top speed advantage puts you side by side before the braking zone as a car's width must be left for racing. That did not happen with Hamilton and Norris.
And goes back to the orginal point that there was no top speed advantage by mercedes.

Anyhow this is a pointless back and forth.

Let's see Mclaren's form next race. I expect another Norris podium. His confidence should be boosted now having a race from lights to flag at the front on pure pace.

It's hard to tell if silverstone was a special case for the mcl strenghts.

[Cs98]

It was too slow in the race. Remember you have to look on the situation not what you see in practice. In the race you have to follow in dirty air and there's also a car on the line which you cannot occupy because you are racing him.
There was no way past for Lewis.
If we look at even the earlier laps of the race, cars were circulating and not being able to overtake. This technical regulation has produced close racing but it has turned some tracks to hard to overtake tracks, most notably this one. Look on Russel vs leclecr or Piastri.
And russel is a good racer. There are other examples too such as Perez.
Hamilton is experienced enough to know where he can overtake and keep the position. Lando could not be passed in a much faster car for many obvious reasons.

I'm not talking about practice. I'm talking about race telemetry showing the Merc was consistently around 2-3kph faster than the Macca on the straights (in free air). The narrative that the Merc is some drag monster is outdated.

If we're talking overall race pace then yes I'd agree the Macca was marginally faster. But Lewis had the preferred tyre for the restart which more than off-set that pace advantage.

Okay so why do you think he did not overtake then? He was incompetent right? Lol
Hamilton just fluffed it as usual, like he had for the past 16 years.

Empirically the car was not fast enough to overtake. We all saw that with our eyes live. DRS open and still no good run.
He was outdragged.
Also high speed corner exit of the mclaren could not he matched by mercedes, worse in the tow.
It is what it is, regardless of what you saw in the telemetry.

This is why it's impossible to have an argument with you. It's more about defending Hamilton than looking at the facts at hand.

All I'm saying is the car wasn't as draggy as the McLaren. That's a fact and you can choose to deal with it any way you like. The numbers will not disappear because of what you (not exactly the most objective observer) saw on TV.

"We all saw that with our eyes live. DRS open and still no good run. He was outdragged".

He never got close enough on corner exit to overtake with DRS. It's not an automatic overtake mechanism, you still have to do the work in the corners. But keep ignoring the facts for your own opinion. That's what you were going to do anyways.

[mzivtins]

The affect of tow at that distance would be minimal, i would argue non-existent.

In the scenario where Norris out dragged Hamilton was nothing to do with a tow from ver. Hamilton had the rear wing open anyway.

Also being alongside a car like that also affects the downforce of bother cars, in GT racing the aerodynamics allow for a side-tow affect, where you can approach the car on its rear quarter and gain a tow affect due to the dirty air coming out from the side of the car.

I think you are trying to make excuses for an utterly slow mercedes. Hamilton had everything on his side and the McLaren simply outclassed that car in everyway that matters.

The tow is very present when another car is less than 3 seconds ahead, Max was 2,5.

"In the scenario where Norris out dragged Hamilton was nothing to do with a tow from ver. Hamilton had the rear wing open anyway".
It wasn't in a DRS zone.

You can try to argue simple facts as much as you want. The Merc was consistently 2-3kph faster on the straights when in free air. Go argue with the telemetry instead of coming in here with lazy arguments and doing no work. I've actually looked at the data and formed an opinion. You're being lazy.

Not only it wasn't in a DRS zone, DRS wasn't even activated yet. People should really double check the facts before posting rubbish hatred.

Ok. lets remove the DRS. What the hell could i have said that is considered hatred? Are you really going to go there?

A mclaren on hard was faster than a merc on softs, Stop being a crybaby.

[mzivtins]

The McLaren was on the racing line and thus in the tow of Verstappen, Lewis was off to the side and not getting a good tow. We also don't know how much energy they had at the time.

The affect of tow at that distance would be minimal, i would argue non-existent.

In the scenario where Norris out dragged Hamilton was nothing to do with a tow from ver. Hamilton had the rear wing open anyway.

Also being alongside a car like that also affects the downforce of bother cars, in GT racing the aerodynamics allow for a side-tow affect, where you can approach the car on its rear quarter and gain a tow affect due to the dirty air coming out from the side of the car.

I think you are trying to make excuses for an utterly slow mercedes. Hamilton had everything on his side and the McLaren simply outclassed that car in everyway that matters.

The tow is very present when another car is less than 3 seconds ahead, Max was 2,5.

"In the scenario where Norris out dragged Hamilton was nothing to do with a tow from ver. Hamilton had the rear wing open anyway".
It wasn't in a DRS zone.

You can try to argue simple facts as much as you want. The Merc was consistently 2-3kph faster on the straights when in free air. Go argue with the telemetry instead of coming in here with lazy arguments and doing no work. I've actually looked at the data and formed an opinion. You're being lazy.

Ok it is my bad, no DRS

If the mercedes was a faster car, then why was it beaten by the mclarens most of the weekend and in the race on a FASTER tyre?

You talk about arguing facts, but i am pretty sure that mclaren out performed mercedes in qualifying and race...

If the tow is that present at 3 seconds then that is news to me, do you have any evidence to prove that the affect is measurable?
Also please show me the affects on drag of two cars running side by side closely (this affect will be MUCH greated than any tow affect at 2-3seconds)

If norris only stayed ahead of hamilton due to a magic tow affect by max, then why did hamilton not realise this and adjust his method of attack?

[mzivtins]

It was too slow in the race. Remember you have to look on the situation not what you see in practice. In the race you have to follow in dirty air and there's also a car on the line which you cannot occupy because you are racing him.
There was no way past for Lewis.
If we look at even the earlier laps of the race, cars were circulating and not being able to overtake. This technical regulation has produced close racing but it has turned some tracks to hard to overtake tracks, most notably this one. Look on Russel vs leclecr or Piastri.
And russel is a good racer. There are other examples too such as Perez.
Hamilton is experienced enough to know where he can overtake and keep the position. Lando could not be passed in a much faster car for many obvious reasons.

I'm not talking about practice. I'm talking about race telemetry showing the Merc was consistently around 2-3kph faster than the Macca on the straights (in free air). The narrative that the Merc is some drag monster is outdated.

If we're talking overall race pace then yes I'd agree the Macca was marginally faster. But Lewis had the preferred tyre for the restart which more than off-set that pace advantage.

Okay so why do you think he did not overtake then? He was incompetent right? Lol
Hamilton just fluffed it as usual, like he had for the past 16 years.

Empirically the car was not fast enough to overtake. We all saw that with our eyes live. DRS open and still no good run.
He was outdragged.
Also high speed corner exit of the mclaren could not he matched by mercedes, worse in the tow.
It is what it is, regardless of what you saw in the telemetry.

Haven't you heard? it is because Norris had a tow from a car 2 seconds+ up the road

I think some people cannot accept the reality that the Mercedes is compromised in design. The Mercedes scores very well because it has by far and away, the best driver line up on the grid. Mercedes in their current level of performance do not deserve such amazing drivers.

There is nothing wrong with McLaren being faster, but calling it hatred to share that fact just shows why this forum is a shell of its former self... race threads with baiting language whilst the technical subforums go back years by the second page.

[Cs98]

The affect of tow at that distance would be minimal, i would argue non-existent.

In the scenario where Norris out dragged Hamilton was nothing to do with a tow from ver. Hamilton had the rear wing open anyway.

Also being alongside a car like that also affects the downforce of bother cars, in GT racing the aerodynamics allow for a side-tow affect, where you can approach the car on its rear quarter and gain a tow affect due to the dirty air coming out from the side of the car.

I think you are trying to make excuses for an utterly slow mercedes. Hamilton had everything on his side and the McLaren simply outclassed that car in everyway that matters.

The tow is very present when another car is less than 3 seconds ahead, Max was 2,5.

"In the scenario where Norris out dragged Hamilton was nothing to do with a tow from ver. Hamilton had the rear wing open anyway".
It wasn't in a DRS zone.

You can try to argue simple facts as much as you want. The Merc was consistently 2-3kph faster on the straights when in free air. Go argue with the telemetry instead of coming in here with lazy arguments and doing no work. I've actually looked at the data and formed an opinion. You're being lazy.

Ok it is my bad, no DRS

If the mercedes was a faster car, then why was it beaten by the mclarens most of the weekend and in the race on a FASTER tyre?

You talk about arguing facts, but i am pretty sure that mclaren out performed mercedes in qualifying and race...

If the tow is that present at 3 seconds then that is news to me, do you have any evidence to prove that the affect is measurable?
Also please show me the affects on drag of two cars running side by side closely (this affect will be MUCH greated than any tow affect at 2-3seconds)

If norris only stayed ahead of hamilton due to a magic tow affect by max, then why did hamilton not realise this and adjust his method of attack?

Another low effort post from you. First the DRS and now just ignoring that I said the McL was faster on pace.

What I did say was that Merc was lower drag. Which was easily observable in the telemetry. But again, you guys are not interested in facts.

The tow is easily observable in the telemetry when within 3 seconds. Gives you a good few kph from 2,5 seconds back. Not as potent as with the old regs, but certainly not insignificant.

"Also please show me the affects on drag of two cars running side by side closely (this affect will be MUCH greated than any tow affect at 2-3seconds)". Show it yourself, this is your statement. Asking me to do your work...

[hollus]

The last page is basically bitchslapping back and forth, not what you come to this forum for and not what everybody else comes here to read.

Please, if your post is going to focus on other posters (think, said, etc), please, just don’t.
Keep it civil, emotional language only makes everything more bitter and more entrenched.

[DGP123]

Once the title is wrapped up, I think we might see multiple race winners. With RB being stagnant, they will be caught. Problem is, they’re working on next years rocket ship already. So then it will probably reset once more.

Hard to be certain but I don't see much room left in the regs for aero development. They are the most watertight regs yet published with no truly open areas left. So it should get tighter, if you look at the rulebook. The cars will keep converging toward the RB18.

Given the regs and what they allow: how many dents can you put in a dough ball? How many different squiggly lines can you draw on the top element of a four element wing? Etc.

So, are the regs so tight, that RB could possibly have hit the ceiling, and that Newey will struggle to extract any significant performance gain, for next year’s car? Surely, he will find a way?

Given the convergence we are witnessing, and teams in the process of copying this concept, to varying degrees, could we see one of the most competitive grids for 24’?

[organic]

It always feels like there isn't much room for development. I am confident that there is plenty of room still