2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[omegacel71]

I thought they had found a trick to make sure that didn't happen while maintaining low ride height similar to other teams

[Farnborough]

I thought they had found a trick to make sure that didn't happen while maintaining low ride height similar to other teams

The "trick" was essentially imposed by FIA lifting floor edges etc that they all had to adopt.

Successful implementation of raised floor load (they seem to have achieved this) while running less wing flap, suggest they've welcome improvement in this loaded aspect, but still ultimately limited by concept that's now running them into familiar limits they previously experienced.

[dans79]

Technically yes it is, raise the car to stop the cycle looping into amplified vertical travel and it goes away, then it's slow.

Exactly the conundrum they started with in 2022.

That's not what the engineers mean!

1. A sprint weekend
2. No dry running prior to the actual race.
3. Multiple upgrades for the weekend.

The above is an excellent way to end up with a car that wasn't set-up properly. Not to mention, if memory serves the wet weather tires are still larger in diameter and thus that alters ride height by default.

[ValeVida46]

That's not what the engineers mean!

1. A sprint weekend
2. No dry running prior to the actual race.
3. Multiple upgrades for the weekend.

The above is an excellent way to end up with a car that wasn't set-up properly. Not to mention, if memory serves the wet weather tires are still larger in diameter and thus that alters ride height by default.

This.

I'd also add that Mercedes this season at least, have form of struggling for set up in the first FP and then start to piece it together in the next 2 sessions. The car needs dialling in, evidenced by FP results, team statements and Sprint weekend results ....6th and 8th in Baku and 7th and 8th in Austria.

[dans79]

I'd also add that Mercedes this season at least, have form of struggling for set up in the first FP and then start to piece it together in the next 2 sessions. The car needs dialling in, evidenced by FP results, team statements and Sprint weekend results ....6th and 8th in Baku and 7th and 8th in Austria.

I'd say a lot of the teams have had issues with nailing a set-up, even for non-sprint weekends.

[mstar]

Well correct me if I am wrong, merc still use floor stays to this day regardless bouncing or not. On all.tracks

[Just_a_fan]

Well correct me if I am wrong, merc still use floor stays to this day regardless bouncing or not. On all.tracks

All teams use floor stays of one type or another...

[CHT]

Technically yes it is, raise the car to stop the cycle looping into amplified vertical travel and it goes away, then it's slow.

Exactly the conundrum they started with in 2022.

That's not what the engineers mean!

1. A sprint weekend
2. No dry running prior to the actual race.
3. Multiple upgrades for the weekend.

The above is an excellent way to end up with a car that wasn't set-up properly. Not to mention, if memory serves the wet weather tires are still larger in diameter and thus that alters ride height by default.

Every team is facing pretty much the same challenges over the weekend and I guess the main difference is that Merc has got a fundamental design issue that makes the car difficult to set up. Merc is still struggling with the unpredictability of the car and this is not a good sign for their 2024 campaign

[organic]

Let's just wait for a couple of races before declaring that

Even RB had a massively limiting issue at spa this year. Nobody had time to set up their cars properly and avoid all problems.

Let's also consider:

The ride height compromises required in a wet weekend perhaps meant Merc pushed particularly low on their dry setup so that the floor still works when the car gets raised by the tread of wets/inters

To lend credence to this running low theory: apart from RB (who it's theorised suffered from ride height issues in the race at spa (viewtopic.php?t=30844&start=2220#p1152350 ) mercedes drivers were the only ones sparking in many places according to people I spoke to trackside

It's also Spa which tests the suspension to its limits (max vert acceleration on the calendar) at eau rouge/radillon. Of course it's a bit more complicated than this but they're running low and need to survive the compression, so they probably had to run their suspension more aggressively, more stiff than usual.

Running the car low and suspension compromised and stiff... sounds like the exact reason the W13 suffered with porpoising so much. So even if it came back this weekend I don't suppose it's a problem that will begin to plague them post-update.

[Sevach]

Well correct me if I am wrong, merc still use floor stays to this day regardless bouncing or not. On all.tracks

All teams use floor stays of one type or another...

It's just better than making a sturdier(and heavier) floor.

[CHT]

Let's just wait for a couple of races before declaring that

Even RB had a massively limiting issue at spa this year. Nobody had time to set up their cars properly and avoid all problems.

Let's also consider:

The ride height compromises required in a wet weekend perhaps meant Merc pushed particularly low on their dry setup so that the floor still works when the car gets raised by the tread of wets/inters

To lend credence to this running low theory: apart from RB (who it's theorised suffered from ride height issues in the race at spa (viewtopic.php?t=30844&start=2220#p1152350 ) mercedes drivers were the only ones sparking in many places according to people I spoke to trackside

It's also Spa which tests the suspension to its limits (max vert acceleration on the calendar) at eau rouge/radillon. Of course it's a bit more complicated than this but they're running low and need to survive the compression, so they probably had to run their suspension more aggressively, more stiff than usual.

Running the car low and suspension compromised and stiff... sounds like the exact reason the W13 suffered with porpoising so much. So even if it came back this weekend I don't suppose it's a problem that will begin to plague them post-update.

Yes, the Merc is a little bit like Frankenstein at the moment, running parts and upgrades which doesn't quite gel together. This must be frustrating for the engineers and the drivers. Hopefully, all these parts will gel with the new floor as I don't think Merc has got budget for any more upgrades for 2023.

[CHT]

For LH, his only chance of winning a WDC is if Merc can give him a can that is superior to the rest, as I think an "equal" car will not be sufficient to mount a challenge against a team like RBR + Max, who is now at his prime.

Looking at LH driving today, he is more like a gentleman and ambassador, rather than a ruthless fighter like Max we see today.

Nonsense. That equal car line you’ve copied from Marko, post weekend.

I am not sure which Marko line you are referring to. All I know is in F1, records are meant to be broken and there will always be a new quickest driver on the grid. And at the moment it's Max.

You may not like it, but LH driving at the moment is just reliable, predictable, and ordinary; aside from Hungary pole there was not much to talk about, and even with that LH didn't benefit on Sunday. LH is nowhere near his prime when he is able to take more risk and steal a win or 2 without the best car on the grid. Just like Max did in 2017 with RBR, securing a couple of wins with the 3rd best car on the grid.

The same can be said with Valentino Rossi career in MotoGP, still the GOAT, but not necessarily the quickest on the grid anymore.

[denyall]

For LH, his only chance of winning a WDC is if Merc can give him a can that is superior to the rest, as I think an "equal" car will not be sufficient to mount a challenge against a team like RBR + Max, who is now at his prime.

Looking at LH driving today, he is more like a gentleman and ambassador, rather than a ruthless fighter like Max we see today.

Nonsense. That equal car line you’ve copied from Marko, post weekend.

I am not sure which Marko line you are referring to. All I know is in F1, records are meant to be broken and there will always be a new quickest driver on the grid. And at the moment it's Max.

You may not like it, but LH driving at the moment is just reliable, predictable, and ordinary; aside from Hungary pole there was not much to talk about, and even with that LH didn't benefit on Sunday. LH is nowhere near his prime when he is able to take more risk and steal a win or 2 without the best car on the grid. Just like Max did in 2017 with RBR, securing a couple of wins with the 3rd best car on the grid.

The same can be said with Valentino Rossi career in MotoGP, still the GOAT, but not necessarily the quickest on the grid anymore.

Of Max's three wins in 2016 and 2017 two were due to crashes by others (Ham/Nico Barcelona 2016 and Ham/Vettel/Max in Mexico 2017) and his one win on merit (Malaysia 2017) had Hamilton in a close title fight against Vettel with not much appetite for risk.

I'm sure that if Checo took Max out or Max had a mechanical DNF, Lewis, or Norris, or
Alonso, or Leclerc could "steal a win" off RB in the "third best car".

None of these drivers are capable of making a fundamentally slower car faster and the fundamentally fast car, however they are capable of taking advantage when opportunity presents itself.

LH has no reason to waste dollars on crashing into other people or the wall trying to force his car to do something it cannot. I'd argue that his careful methodical approach is the best way to utilize the available cap money on developing the car to be a winner.

[CHT]

Nonsense. That equal car line you’ve copied from Marko, post weekend.

I am not sure which Marko line you are referring to. All I know is in F1, records are meant to be broken and there will always be a new quickest driver on the grid. And at the moment it's Max.

You may not like it, but LH driving at the moment is just reliable, predictable, and ordinary; aside from Hungary pole there was not much to talk about, and even with that LH didn't benefit on Sunday. LH is nowhere near his prime when he is able to take more risk and steal a win or 2 without the best car on the grid. Just like Max did in 2017 with RBR, securing a couple of wins with the 3rd best car on the grid.

The same can be said with Valentino Rossi career in MotoGP, still the GOAT, but not necessarily the quickest on the grid anymore.

Of Max's three wins in 2016 and 2017 two were due to crashes by others (Ham/Nico Barcelona 2016 and Ham/Vettel/Max in Mexico 2017) and his one win on merit (Malaysia 2017) had Hamilton in a close title fight against Vettel with not much appetite for risk.

I'm sure that if Checo took Max out or Max had a mechanical DNF, Lewis, or Norris, or
Alonso, or Leclerc could "steal a win" off RB in the "third best car".

None of these drivers are capable of making a fundamentally slower car faster and the fundamentally fast car, however they are capable of taking advantage when opportunity presents itself.

LH has no reason to waste dollars on crashing into other people or the wall trying to force his car to do something it cannot. I'd argue that his careful methodical approach is the best way to utilize the available cap money on developing the car to be a winner.

I shall refrain from getting who is the better driver discussion here.
LH is one of the GOAT, but not necessarily the quickest driver now.

And as Mika said, history will repeat itself. This is F1.

https://racingnews365.com/hakkinen-excl ... st-forever

(There is a little poll right below if you are interested)

[DGP123]

Nonsense. That equal car line you’ve copied from Marko, post weekend.

I am not sure which Marko line you are referring to. All I know is in F1, records are meant to be broken and there will always be a new quickest driver on the grid. And at the moment it's Max.

You may not like it, but LH driving at the moment is just reliable, predictable, and ordinary; aside from Hungary pole there was not much to talk about, and even with that LH didn't benefit on Sunday. LH is nowhere near his prime when he is able to take more risk and steal a win or 2 without the best car on the grid. Just like Max did in 2017 with RBR, securing a couple of wins with the 3rd best car on the grid.

The same can be said with Valentino Rossi career in MotoGP, still the GOAT, but not necessarily the quickest on the grid anymore.

Of Max's three wins in 2016 and 2017 two were due to crashes by others (Ham/Nico Barcelona 2016 and Ham/Vettel/Max in Mexico 2017) and his one win on merit (Malaysia 2017) had Hamilton in a close title fight against Vettel with not much appetite for risk.

I'm sure that if Checo took Max out or Max had a mechanical DNF, Lewis, or Norris, or
Alonso, or Leclerc could "steal a win" off RB in the "third best car".

None of these drivers are capable of making a fundamentally slower car faster and the fundamentally fast car, however they are capable of taking advantage when opportunity presents itself.

LH has no reason to waste dollars on crashing into other people or the wall trying to force his car to do something it cannot. I'd argue that his careful methodical approach is the best way to utilize the available cap money on developing the car to be a winner.

Completely agree.

You may not like it, but LH driving at the moment is just reliable, predictable, and ordinary

What? If anything, since the upgrade in Monaco, Hamilton has come alive. Christ, if Hamilton’s driving is ‘ordinary’, how do you describe, Russell’s?