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Imo Ferrari outdeveloped them too. The car was nowhere on high load corner/track (see Spain), it was Leclerc worst race I've seen really. Now even if it's painful to watch them onboard in S1 at Suzuka the car has clearly improved. For the rest they were firm 2nd best on high speed track (Monza, Spa) and fastest due to RB woes on start and stop track (Singapore) but actually they were 2nd fastest in Canada for example.
Only if Ferrari and McLaren drop the ball.
Mercedes are fair to their drivers so any such considerations will no doubt be taken in to account.chrisc90 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023, 12:08Russell could be on a bonus scheme for where he finishes in the WDC - or even race position.
That could explain why he wants to maximise his points, rather than me there to help Lewis chase second.
Who knows, there’s a lot of specifics to all of this and probably extends a bit more than the team game.
Should Russell always be playing the wingman to Lewis, when realistically the best for both outcomes is P2 in WDC and WCC?
If there was a 2021 style title battle - I guess that different
That's the funny thing with George, if he was ahead in the standing, if role were reversed at Singapore Lewis would've to move aside to help him in the WDC. Now the guy is playing with Stroll in the WDC he's there to gamble so Lewis has to cope with this too. In both case you end up giving the guy who has 1 win the ability to win over the 103 wins guy at Singapore... who saw how this end upchrisc90 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023, 12:08Russell could be on a bonus scheme for where he finishes in the WDC - or even race position.
That could explain why he wants to maximise his points, rather than me there to help Lewis chase second.
Who knows, there’s a lot of specifics to all of this and probably extends a bit more than the team game.
Should Russell always be playing the wingman to Lewis, when realistically the best for both outcomes is P2 in WDC and WCC?
If there was a 2021 style title battle - I guess that different
While it's clear he had an early DNF, Russell hasn't been clearly faster than Hamilton this year (the few times he has beaten Lewis it's because he had woes in qualy but he end up in his gearbox/ahead of him in race trim). The only weekend where it was the case was probably Singapore until the last stint.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023, 11:33Only if Ferrari and McLaren drop the ball.
And him fighting for a possible 6th isn't as important/impressive as Hamilton fighting for a possible 2nd. Frankly, if it wasn't for Merc's even-handed approach to their drivers, they'd have asked Russell to move over in Singapore too. Other teams would have done so in order to help the driver with the most title points secure a few more.
Russell was unlucky in the early part of the season with an engine fire which put him behind Hamilton, and then he messed up in Canada. Both of those put him on the back foot in a season when his team mate has been pretty consistent in terms of collecting points. Dropping it in Singapore might have been the final nail in the 2023 season's coffin lid for him. He might find he is asked to move over in other races if it helps Hamilton secure 2nd in the the WDC. He needs to take that forward in to 2024 and ensure he is in a strong position throughout. I think he got a bit blasé after having had a decent 2022 against Hamilton. But history shows that Hamilton generally comes back strongly if he has a poor period. Russell needs to be on his game next year.
I was merely pointing out that if you lose points compared to your team mate, at some point it will play against you if the team is making team-order decisions. Those early losses didn't help his cause - he's lucky that his team is generally one of the more even-handed in its approach to its drivers.Spoutnik wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023, 13:51While it's clear he had an early DNF, Russell hasn't been clearly faster than Hamilton this year (the few times he has beaten Lewis it's because he had woes in qualy but he end up in his gearbox/ahead of him in race trim). The only weekend where it was the case was probably Singapore until the last stint.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023, 11:33Only if Ferrari and McLaren drop the ball.
And him fighting for a possible 6th isn't as important/impressive as Hamilton fighting for a possible 2nd. Frankly, if it wasn't for Merc's even-handed approach to their drivers, they'd have asked Russell to move over in Singapore too. Other teams would have done so in order to help the driver with the most title points secure a few more.
Russell was unlucky in the early part of the season with an engine fire which put him behind Hamilton, and then he messed up in Canada. Both of those put him on the back foot in a season when his team mate has been pretty consistent in terms of collecting points. Dropping it in Singapore might have been the final nail in the 2023 season's coffin lid for him. He might find he is asked to move over in other races if it helps Hamilton secure 2nd in the the WDC. He needs to take that forward in to 2024 and ensure he is in a strong position throughout. I think he got a bit blasé after having had a decent 2022 against Hamilton. But history shows that Hamilton generally comes back strongly if he has a poor period. Russell needs to be on his game next year.
Nothing wrong with Mercedes pushing for Lewis to get eight and George play number 2 until Lewis is incapable of beating him. Let's face it, if George compromises Lewis eight championship it is basically a robbery. He will steal history itself.Farnborough wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023, 12:28Lewis, by signing for another two years, has a selfish view and outlook in that decision of course. Thats not a derogatory statement, but there's no point in him extending his competitive career without holding that view. It's really a championship ship or nothing stance.
George must be able to step up to compete with Lewis, else there's no point in him being there either, for the longer term. That maybe a harsh view, but he's not going to beat other drivers in other teams without a critical accuracy in driving now. there's no point in bleating on and on over comms about it.
The anomaly right now is, what do MB want from their drivers ? Their statement, Toto, says to help Lewis get that "his" 8th title. There you have it, in it's most succinct form. George IS support, whether they want to put it like that or not. If that's what they want, they have to act accordingly. Else Lewis is wasting his time here.
That was prime Lewis "hunt them and chase them hard" driving in Singapore, and George cracked ! They need to focus on their principal target and also support George in secondary target right now to see what they can get.
The primary reason for LH to sign a 2-year contract is to allow him the opportunity and option to seek his 8th WDC with another team if Merc fails to deliver a championship-winning car by 2025.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑27 Sep 2023, 04:02Nothing wrong with Mercedes pushing for Lewis to get eight and George play number 2 until Lewis is incapable of beating him. Let's face it, if George compromises Lewis eight championship it is basically a robbery. He will steal history itself.Farnborough wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023, 12:28Lewis, by signing for another two years, has a selfish view and outlook in that decision of course. Thats not a derogatory statement, but there's no point in him extending his competitive career without holding that view. It's really a championship ship or nothing stance.
George must be able to step up to compete with Lewis, else there's no point in him being there either, for the longer term. That maybe a harsh view, but he's not going to beat other drivers in other teams without a critical accuracy in driving now. there's no point in bleating on and on over comms about it.
The anomaly right now is, what do MB want from their drivers ? Their statement, Toto, says to help Lewis get that "his" 8th title. There you have it, in it's most succinct form. George IS support, whether they want to put it like that or not. If that's what they want, they have to act accordingly. Else Lewis is wasting his time here.
That was prime Lewis "hunt them and chase them hard" driving in Singapore, and George cracked ! They need to focus on their principal target and also support George in secondary target right now to see what they can get.
No one reads wikipedia anyway.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑27 Sep 2023, 04:02Nothing wrong with Mercedes pushing for Lewis to get eight and George play number 2 until Lewis is incapable of beating him. Let's face it, if George compromises Lewis eight championship it is basically a robbery. He will steal history itself.Farnborough wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023, 12:28Lewis, by signing for another two years, has a selfish view and outlook in that decision of course. Thats not a derogatory statement, but there's no point in him extending his competitive career without holding that view. It's really a championship ship or nothing stance.
George must be able to step up to compete with Lewis, else there's no point in him being there either, for the longer term. That maybe a harsh view, but he's not going to beat other drivers in other teams without a critical accuracy in driving now. there's no point in bleating on and on over comms about it.
The anomaly right now is, what do MB want from their drivers ? Their statement, Toto, says to help Lewis get that "his" 8th title. There you have it, in it's most succinct form. George IS support, whether they want to put it like that or not. If that's what they want, they have to act accordingly. Else Lewis is wasting his time here.
That was prime Lewis "hunt them and chase them hard" driving in Singapore, and George cracked ! They need to focus on their principal target and also support George in secondary target right now to see what they can get.