Red Bull RB20

[Jibbyslap]

THE QUESTION: Why has Redbull moved to centerline cooling given the weight penalty and given the COG penalty (i.e., the weight is now much higher up than it was when more of the cooling was in the sidepod? It's puzzling because it's counterintuitive.

One proposed answer is that RedBull has made some significant engine gains that require more cooling. The problem with this theory is that the RedBull sidepods have had more than enough volume to increase the cooling in the sidepod, so why take the weight and COG penalty by moving to centerline cooling? The best answer seems to be that they did this because it allows for smaller sidepods and there are enough aero gains to be had by shrinking the sidepods to more than offset the weight and COG penalties.

Another possible answer people are now discussing is that moving more weight much higher up on the car is somehow improving COG and car drivability rather than making it worse. (Yes, and perhaps Redbull has also figured out a way to makes the car faster by increasing the weight of the cooling system rather than making it lighter!) Good luck explaining how all of that is supposed to work. Again, the best, most straightforward, answer seems to be that there are aero gains to be had by shrinking the sidepods.

The next question, then, is how have Redbull managed to shrink the sidepods while keeping the front wheel wake outboard along the length of the car. To me, the answer that makes the most sense is that they're deploying a Mercedes-inspired concept, namely, using a SIS wing fairing to help keep the wheel wake outboard even though the sidepods get smaller.

Evidence in support of this answer:
1.) It makes sense of the rumors (but talk of "zeropods" is a red-herring... it's Mercedes-inspired but it's not zeropods!)
2.) The move to the overbite and shark mouth inlet seem more congenial to the SIS wing fairing concept than the underbite concept they've been using... the overall curved shape (convex top surface and concave bottom surface) of the overbite (with shark mouth inlet) already look a bit like a wing.
3.) The SIS is in a position to turn the outside portion of the overbite and SIS into a SIS wing fairing.
4.) It makes sense of the rumor that the will shorten the length of the inlet.
5.) The move to and shape of the v-radiators in the sidepods appear to allow for the front of the sidepod to taper in significantly enough to allow for enough exposure to form a SIS wing with the outer portion of the overbite and SIS (with a shortened inlet). Their shape also appears to allow the back portion of the sidepod to shrink-wrap down quite a bit to improve clean air downwash, which, if I am right, is the whole point.

I think Red Bull will shrink their side-pod in a way that preserves the downwash and also increases the undercut.

My suggestion is that RedBull will shrink their sidepods in a way that preserves their undercut (and its benefits) and also increases the clean air downwash (and its benefits). The placement of the shark mouth inlet will also allow some of the excess pressure at the inlet at high speed to bleed off into the wing and along the side of the sidepod, keeping it out of the clean air flow on the top and bottom of the sidepod. Pure speculation. Can't wait to see if I'm right!

[matteosc]

THE QUESTION: Why has Redbull moved to centerline cooling given the weight penalty and given the COG penalty (i.e., the weight is now much higher up than it was when more of the cooling was in the sidepod? It's puzzling because it's counterintuitive.

One proposed answer is that RedBull has made some significant engine gains that require more cooling. The problem with this theory is that the RedBull sidepods have had more than enough volume to increase the cooling in the sidepod, so why take the weight and COG penalty by moving to centerline cooling? The best answer seems to be that they did this because it allows for smaller sidepods and there are enough aero gains to be had by shrinking the sidepods to more than offset the weight and COG penalties.

The engine did not change significantly. If anything it may require less cooling, or at least that is the trend.
Centerline cooling may help with:
1) Reducing sidepods volumes, or at least be free to shape them at will
2) Improve internal flows in the sidepods (not sure about how it would work)

Another possible answer people are now discussing is that moving more weight much higher up on the car is somehow improving COG and car drivability rather than making it worse. (Yes, and perhaps Redbull has also figured out a way to makes the car faster by increasing the weight of the cooling system rather than making it lighter!) Good luck explaining how all of that is supposed to work. Again, the best, most straightforward, answer seems to be that there are aero gains to be had by shrinking the sidepods.

Yes, this makes no sense. You do not improve drivability by increasing load transfer, that is a matter of physics. Same for overall weight: an heavier car will never go faster, if everything else remain the same. Increase in weight and COG height may be necessary to implement other feature, but they are never desired characteristics by themselves.

[AR3-GP]

Another possible answer people are now discussing is that moving more weight much higher up on the car is somehow improving COG and car drivability rather than making it worse. (Yes, and perhaps Redbull has also figured out a way to makes the car faster by increasing the weight of the cooling system rather than making it lighter!) Good luck explaining how all of that is supposed to work. Again, the best, most straightforward, answer seems to be that there are aero gains to be had by shrinking the sidepods.

Yes, this makes no sense. You do not improve drivability by increasing load transfer, that is a matter of physics. Same for overall weight: an heavier car will never go faster, if everything else remain the same. Increase in weight and COG height may be necessary to implement other feature, but they are never desired characteristics by themselves.

I've been thinking, and it's not so straight forward. You see, assuming these coolers were previously located in the sidepods, then by moving them inboard, they've reduced the moment of inertia about a vertical axis located at the center of mass. So basically, there is a little bit less resistance when the forces at the front wheel make the car turn left and right. This has to be balanced of course with the raising of the CoG and the effect of this height increase on lateral and longitudinal load transfer as well as any pitch, roll, yaw moments/dynamics.

I suspect there could be some legitamate scenarios where moving mass inboard has a positive impact on dynamics. It just depends on how it's done and how much inboard it moved, vs how much higher. You really have to do the simulations.

With that said, I lean massively towards an aerodynamic motivation which will soon be revealed.

[matteosc]

Another possible answer people are now discussing is that moving more weight much higher up on the car is somehow improving COG and car drivability rather than making it worse. (Yes, and perhaps Redbull has also figured out a way to makes the car faster by increasing the weight of the cooling system rather than making it lighter!) Good luck explaining how all of that is supposed to work. Again, the best, most straightforward, answer seems to be that there are aero gains to be had by shrinking the sidepods.

Yes, this makes no sense. You do not improve drivability by increasing load transfer, that is a matter of physics. Same for overall weight: an heavier car will never go faster, if everything else remain the same. Increase in weight and COG height may be necessary to implement other feature, but they are never desired characteristics by themselves.

I've been thinking, and it's not so straight forward. You see, assuming these coolers were previously located in the sidepods, then by moving them inboard, they've reduced the moment of inertia about a vertical axis located at the center of mass. So basically, there is a little bit less resistance when the forces at the front wheel make the car turn left and right. This has to be balanced of course with the raising of the CoG and the effect of this height increase on lateral and longitudinal load transfer as well as any pitch, roll, yaw moments/dynamics.

I suspect there could be some legitamate scenarios where moving mass inboard has a positive impact on dynamics. It just depends on how it's done and how much inboard it moved, vs how much higher. You really have to do the simulations.

With that said, I lean massively towards an aerodynamic motivation which will soon be revealed.

Yes, reducing the moment of inertia around the vertical axis would improve how fast the car can turn in, but it may be relevant only in very tight corners. The COG height has way more importance because of the lateral load transfer.

Aerodynamically, it makes way more sense.

[Jibbyslap]

The engine did not change significantly. If anything it may require less cooling, or at least that is the trend....

You do not improve drivability by increasing load transfer, that is a matter of physics. Same for overall weight: an heavier car will never go faster, if everything else remain the same. Increase in weight and COG height may be necessary to implement other feature, but they are never desired characteristics by themselves.

100% agree on both counts! Those two options don't make a whole lot of sense. So the best answer to my question above seems to be that Red Bull is going to be further shrinking their side pods... They've taken on the weight penalty and CoG penalty that has resulted from moving to more centerline cooling because their simulations show the gains from the smaller pods we will soon see more than offset the penalties from their new centerline cooling platform.

If that is correct, then the next question is how are they going to shrink their pods while keeping the wheel wake at bay? Either they've figured out a completely new way of doing this, or they figured out a way to modify Mercedes concept of the SIS wing fairing and make it work with their car architecture. I think it's the latter. Not the "zeropods" (W13), but a SIS wing fairing of some sort nonetheless, which will be used in conjunction with the overbite, shark mouth inlet, and huge undercut sidepod we already see on the RB20. As Scarbs noted, Newey doesn't tend to come up with completely new, innovative solutions; rather, he tends to take other's innovative solutions, improves on them, and makes them work (better) on his car. That's what we're going to see in Japan!

[vorticism]

Worth noting that RB have used centerline cooling on all of their cars since the regulation change of 2014.

[AR3-GP]

The engine did not change significantly. If anything it may require less cooling, or at least that is the trend....

You do not improve drivability by increasing load transfer, that is a matter of physics. Same for overall weight: an heavier car will never go faster, if everything else remain the same. Increase in weight and COG height may be necessary to implement other feature, but they are never desired characteristics by themselves.

100% agree on both counts! Those two options don't make a whole lot of sense. So the best answer to my question above seems to be that Red Bull is going to be further shrinking their side pods... They've taken on the weight penalty and CoG penalty that has resulted from moving to more centerline cooling because their simulations show the gains from the smaller pods we will soon see more than offset the penalties from their new centerline cooling platform.

If that is correct, then the next question is how are they going to shrink their pods while keeping the wheel wake at bay? Either they've figured out a completely new way of doing this, or they figured out a way to modify Mercedes concept of the SIS wing fairing and make it work with their car architecture. I think it's the latter. Not the "zeropods" (W13), but a SIS wing fairing of some sort nonetheless, which will be used in conjunction with the overbite, shark mouth inlet, and huge undercut sidepod we already see on the RB20. As Scarbs noted, Newey doesn't tend to come up with completely new, innovative solutions; rather, he tends to take other's innovative solutions, improves on them, and makes them work (better) on his car. That's what we're going to see in Japan!

Maybe the detailing of the remaining sidepod volume will become more aggressively outwashing? Here is launch spec AMR-22

[Jibbyslap]

Worth noting that RB have used centerline cooling on all of their cars since the regulation change of 2014.

No doubt, but I've been solely referring to the clear change in cooling architecture in the RB20 (as compared to the RB18 and 19), which has undoubtedly moved more of its cooling to centerline and is undoubtedly paying a penalty in weight and CoG as a result of this change.

[AR3-GP]

Looking at this picture, the sideways 'S' appears to hug the inside of the cannon bodywork, which means it would block all airflow front of it.

So does this mean that this is a duct exit? Which entrance is it tied to? Apologies if this has been discussed already.

https://i.imgur.com/yLEbPap.jpeg

I haven't seen anyone discuss this spesifically.
There seems to be some ducting going down to the back of the shroud on the radiator/inter-cooler, so could something like this be feeding it? Could be the vertical inlet connects to it as well but I'm not sure about the legality boxes in that case.
5a1e7&
Sorry for the horrible drawing, i hope the idea comes across.

Interesting theory. Maybe the vertical inlets exit inside the cannon tubes of the engine cover. Maybe it has a drag reduction effect.

However, the thing on the left that you drew the green marks on is the engine intake manifold.

[Unzinn]

Looking at this picture, the sideways 'S' appears to hug the inside of the cannon bodywork, which means it would block all airflow front of it.

So does this mean that this is a duct exit? Which entrance is it tied to? Apologies if this has been discussed already.

https://i.imgur.com/yLEbPap.jpeg

I haven't seen anyone discuss this spesifically.
There seems to be some ducting going down to the back of the shroud on the radiator/inter-cooler, so could something like this be feeding it? Could be the vertical inlet connects to it as well but I'm not sure about the legality boxes in that case.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... b8cda65943 5a1e7&
Sorry for the horrible drawing, i hope the idea comes across.

Interesting theory. Maybe the vertical inlets exit inside the cannon tubes of the engine cover. Maybe it has a drag reduction effect.

However, the thing on the left that you drew the green marks on is the engine intake manifold.

https://i.postimg.cc/d1d4Cjjf/IMG-6878.jpg

I don't think it's the intake manifold, as on the current Honda engine the intake manifold sits on top of the engine and is more compact/center-line. The plenum is quite a sensitive area for engine performance so I don't think they would change it this much, or if they would even be able to during the current engine freeze.

This is the Engine from last year and you can see it wouldn't make sense for this to be the intake manifold.

[Andi76]

Another possible answer people are now discussing is that moving more weight much higher up on the car is somehow improving COG and car drivability rather than making it worse. (Yes, and perhaps Redbull has also figured out a way to makes the car faster by increasing the weight of the cooling system rather than making it lighter!) Good luck explaining how all of that is supposed to work. Again, the best, most straightforward, answer seems to be that there are aero gains to be had by shrinking the sidepods.

Yes, this makes no sense. You do not improve drivability by increasing load transfer, that is a matter of physics. Same for overall weight: an heavier car will never go faster, if everything else remain the same. Increase in weight and COG height may be necessary to implement other feature, but they are never desired characteristics by themselves.

I've been thinking, and it's not so straight forward. You see, assuming these coolers were previously located in the sidepods, then by moving them inboard, they've reduced the moment of inertia about a vertical axis located at the center of mass. So basically, there is a little bit less resistance when the forces at the front wheel make the car turn left and right. This has to be balanced of course with the raising of the CoG and the effect of this height increase on lateral and longitudinal load transfer as well as any pitch, roll, yaw moments/dynamics.

I suspect there could be some legitamate scenarios where moving mass inboard has a positive impact on dynamics. It just depends on how it's done and how much inboard it moved, vs how much higher. You really have to do the simulations.

With that said, I lean massively towards an aerodynamic motivation which will soon be revealed.

Red Bull is improving Pitch&Yaw Intertia with this, which is a key factor for the performance of a race car alongside the CoG. The first to realize the big importance of pitch&yaw inertia for a F1 cars performance were Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne 25 years ago. I think that Red Bull have improved performance by reducing Pitch&Yaw Inertia more than they "sacrificed CoG". With the ground effect cars, pitch&yaw inertia has certainly become even more important. So they found some gains in aero ("smaller sidepods"+ better pitch and yaw values) and also vehicle dynamics performance (pitch&yaw inertia) with that for loosing a little on the vehicle dynamics side (higher CoG), which resulted in an increase in performance in the end.

Interesting image about RB20s possible cooling layout:

[venkyhere]

Interesting image about RB20s possible cooling layout:

https://postimg.cc/5Y7skZ57

Can you also indicate the entry and exit surfaces for the cooling air on the two heat exchangers inside the sidepod ?

[SiLo]

I certain that after the first few races which are traditionally fairly hot, the sidepods will be reduced in size, and moving some cooling up behind the driver allows them to achieve that.

The current sidepods are not their end goal most likely.

[organic]

I certain that after the first few races which are traditionally fairly hot, the sidepods will be reduced in size, and moving some cooling up behind the driver allows them to achieve that.

The current sidepods are not their end goal most likely.

It's certain there will be a significant change at Japan

[Andi76]

I certain that after the first few races which are traditionally fairly hot, the sidepods will be reduced in size, and moving some cooling up behind the driver allows them to achieve that.

The current sidepods are not their end goal most likely.

It may be that you change something. But I hope you don't mean "real Zeropods". This would require a complete rebuild of the entire cooling system, which is hardly possible in times of the budget cap. You would practically have to relocate the ICE main cooler and the charge air cooler and all the units in their vicinity. This not only raises the question of whether this is even possible in terms of the structure, but above all where to put it? Where do you want to put these big coolers? Especially when this would really increase the CoG so much that it would be extremely disadvantageous.
I think it's more likely that there will be a minor update, similar to the one from 2023. I think a complete rebuild of the cooling system during the season is very unlikely in my opinion.