Red Bull RB20

[AR3-GP]

I certain that after the first few races which are traditionally fairly hot, the sidepods will be reduced in size, and moving some cooling up behind the driver allows them to achieve that.

The current sidepods are not their end goal most likely.

It may be that you change something. But I hope you don't mean "real Zeropods". This would require a complete rebuild of the entire cooling system, which is hardly possible in times of the budget cap. You would practically have to relocate the ICE main cooler and the charge air cooler and all the units in their vicinity. This not only raises the question of whether this is even possible in terms of the structure, but above all where to put it? Where do you want to put these big coolers? Especially when this would really increase the CoG so much that it would be extremely disadvantageous.
I think it's more likely that there will be a minor update, similar to the one from 2023. I think a complete rebuild of the cooling system during the season is very unlikely in my opinion.

There is a lot of room between "minor update" and "complete rebuild of the cooling system". It's not one or the other.

[vorticism]

Courtesy of photos from XPB/Nextgen-Auto & racefans.net I've overlayed images of the RB18, RB19, and RB20 which were taken from the same location at Sakhir circuit. The parallax of the RB18 & 20 photos were nearly identical, RB19 slightly more askew but generally all were captured from very close angles and are useful for rough comparison. The photos are aligned at the rollhoop. Measured from roll hoop forward, I observe that the RB19 was the shortest; can anyone corroborate this? RB20 is the longest although this was not a surprise.



Correlate this to the mandated 45:55 front-rear weight distribution and the forward shifted heat exchangers of the RB20. Furthermore consider there may be more ballast available to the RB20 than there was for the previous cars.

[Andi76]

I certain that after the first few races which are traditionally fairly hot, the sidepods will be reduced in size, and moving some cooling up behind the driver allows them to achieve that.

The current sidepods are not their end goal most likely.

It may be that you change something. But I hope you don't mean "real Zeropods". This would require a complete rebuild of the entire cooling system, which is hardly possible in times of the budget cap. You would practically have to relocate the ICE main cooler and the charge air cooler and all the units in their vicinity. This not only raises the question of whether this is even possible in terms of the structure, but above all where to put it? Where do you want to put these big coolers? Especially when this would really increase the CoG so much that it would be extremely disadvantageous.
I think it's more likely that there will be a minor update, similar to the one from 2023. I think a complete rebuild of the cooling system during the season is very unlikely in my opinion.

There is a lot of room between "minor update" and "complete rebuild of the cooling system". It's not one or the other.

You're right, but there are clearly limits here. What some people think, namely that they can simply pack the large ICE Main and Charge Air Cooler into the already full Bazooka area, is simply not possible. Because where would there be room for these huge coolers? And we're not even talking about the fact that these huge coolers would definitely increase the CoG to such an extent that it would be such a considerable disadvantage for the performance of the car that it would not even begin to be offset by any aerodynamic gain. In my opinion, the only possibility would be a completely new type of water-cooled and ring-shaped intercooler and a similar ICE main cooler. But in the "conventional" way, I don't see any other way to realize this than what was done in 2023. Personally, I don't think that the layout of the cooling system will change much and can be changed and that the "big Japan update" will ultimately have the same scope as the 2023 updates in this regard. We will see.

[AR3-GP]

It may be that you change something. But I hope you don't mean "real Zeropods". This would require a complete rebuild of the entire cooling system, which is hardly possible in times of the budget cap. You would practically have to relocate the ICE main cooler and the charge air cooler and all the units in their vicinity. This not only raises the question of whether this is even possible in terms of the structure, but above all where to put it? Where do you want to put these big coolers? Especially when this would really increase the CoG so much that it would be extremely disadvantageous.
I think it's more likely that there will be a minor update, similar to the one from 2023. I think a complete rebuild of the cooling system during the season is very unlikely in my opinion.

There is a lot of room between "minor update" and "complete rebuild of the cooling system". It's not one or the other.

You're right, but there are clearly limits here. What some people think, namely that they can simply pack the large ICE Main and Charge Air Cooler into the already full Bazooka area, is simply not possible. Because where would there be room for these huge coolers? And we're not even talking about the fact that these huge coolers would definitely increase the CoG to such an extent that it would be such a considerable disadvantage for the performance of the car that it would not even begin to be offset by any aerodynamic gain. In my opinion, the only possibility would be a completely new type of water-cooled and ring-shaped intercooler and a similar ICE main cooler. But in the "conventional" way, I don't see any other way to realize this than what was done in 2023. Personally, I don't think that the layout of the cooling system will change much and can be changed and that the "big Japan update" will ultimately have the same scope as the 2023 updates in this regard. We will see.

Don't worry Andi, I haven't fallen for the buzzword stories... . I agree and I actually don't think the cooling system will change at all this year, not in Japan or anywhere else. The cooling system we are seeing is the cooling system update. Formula.uno says something like this takes 6 months to scheme and implement. There wouldn't be two completely different cooling systems introduced in the span of 3 race weekends. It wouldn't make sense from a cost and development efficiency standpoint.

The nature of the update in Japan is likely just bodywork and floor. I wouldn't consider a bodywork update to be "minor" but maybe we are just arguing some semantics here. I suspect that there is no fundamental disagreement between us. It's just that when performance differentiation can be measured in the milimeters, then there's no such thing as a minor update

[SiLo]

I certain that after the first few races which are traditionally fairly hot, the sidepods will be reduced in size, and moving some cooling up behind the driver allows them to achieve that.

The current sidepods are not their end goal most likely.

It may be that you change something. But I hope you don't mean "real Zeropods". This would require a complete rebuild of the entire cooling system, which is hardly possible in times of the budget cap. You would practically have to relocate the ICE main cooler and the charge air cooler and all the units in their vicinity. This not only raises the question of whether this is even possible in terms of the structure, but above all where to put it? Where do you want to put these big coolers? Especially when this would really increase the CoG so much that it would be extremely disadvantageous.
I think it's more likely that there will be a minor update, similar to the one from 2023. I think a complete rebuild of the cooling system during the season is very unlikely in my opinion.

Zeropods is just dumb media nomenclature.

[Mmgnt]

Looking at this picture, the sideways 'S' appears to hug the inside of the cannon bodywork, which means it would block all airflow front of it.

So does this mean that this is a duct exit? Which entrance is it tied to? Apologies if this has been discussed already.

https://i.imgur.com/yLEbPap.jpeg

I haven't seen anyone discuss this spesifically.
There seems to be some ducting going down to the back of the shroud on the radiator/inter-cooler, so could something like this be feeding it? Could be the vertical inlet connects to it as well but I'm not sure about the legality boxes in that case.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 59435a1e7&
Sorry for the horrible drawing, i hope the idea comes across.

Looking at this picture, the engine cover at the base of the cannons is definitely wider than last year (under 'Red'); likely to accommodate the duct?

[AR3-GP]

Looking at this picture, the sideways 'S' appears to hug the inside of the cannon bodywork, which means it would block all airflow front of it.

So does this mean that this is a duct exit? Which entrance is it tied to? Apologies if this has been discussed already.

https://i.imgur.com/yLEbPap.jpeg

I haven't seen anyone discuss this spesifically.
There seems to be some ducting going down to the back of the shroud on the radiator/inter-cooler, so could something like this be feeding it? Could be the vertical inlet connects to it as well but I'm not sure about the legality boxes in that case.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 59435a1e7&
Sorry for the horrible drawing, i hope the idea comes across.

Looking at this picture, the engine cover at the base of the cannons is definitely wider than last year (under 'Red'); likely to accommodate the duct?

https://www.the-race.com/content/images ... -0--2-.png

The heights are not the same where you are looking. The RB19 has a flat upper sidepod surface. The RB20 has a "basin" inside the trailing edge of the sidepod ramp, so the engine cover travels down further before it meets the sidepod inboard side. It seems more like perspectives playing tricks.

[Watto]

I will be interested to see how RB evolve more than any other team since they decided to make some big changed to their designs (while keeping some of the fundamentals very much the same.what do they have planned.

[AR3-GP]

The RB20 floor edge from this angle reminded me of the fake Alfa Romeo C43 launch renders:




Is this not what they are trying to imitate (but within the regulations)?

[Jibbyslap]

Yes, this makes no sense. You do not improve drivability by increasing load transfer, that is a matter of physics. Same for overall weight: an heavier car will never go faster, if everything else remain the same. Increase in weight and COG height may be necessary to implement other feature, but they are never desired characteristics by themselves.

I've been thinking, and it's not so straight forward. You see, assuming these coolers were previously located in the sidepods, then by moving them inboard, they've reduced the moment of inertia about a vertical axis located at the center of mass. So basically, there is a little bit less resistance when the forces at the front wheel make the car turn left and right. This has to be balanced of course with the raising of the CoG and the effect of this height increase on lateral and longitudinal load transfer as well as any pitch, roll, yaw moments/dynamics.

I suspect there could be some legitamate scenarios where moving mass inboard has a positive impact on dynamics. It just depends on how it's done and how much inboard it moved, vs how much higher. You really have to do the simulations.

With that said, I lean massively towards an aerodynamic motivation which will soon be revealed.

Red Bull is improving Pitch&Yaw Intertia with this, which is a key factor for the performance of a race car alongside the CoG. The first to realize the big importance of pitch&yaw inertia for a F1 cars performance were Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne 25 years ago. I think that Red Bull have improved performance by reducing Pitch&Yaw Inertia more than they "sacrificed CoG". With the ground effect cars, pitch&yaw inertia has certainly become even more important. So they found some gains in aero ("smaller sidepods"+ better pitch and yaw values) and also vehicle dynamics performance (pitch&yaw inertia) with that for loosing a little on the vehicle dynamics side (higher CoG), which resulted in an increase in performance in the end.

Interesting image about RB20s possible cooling layout:

https://postimg.cc/5Y7skZ57

This article seems relevant to this discussion
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/zero ... evolution/

RedBull may have found several different benefits (improved turn-in, pitch/raw inertia, aero) from all of the changes they've made to their cooling architecture. Fascinating stuff!!!

[Andi76]

I've been thinking, and it's not so straight forward. You see, assuming these coolers were previously located in the sidepods, then by moving them inboard, they've reduced the moment of inertia about a vertical axis located at the center of mass. So basically, there is a little bit less resistance when the forces at the front wheel make the car turn left and right. This has to be balanced of course with the raising of the CoG and the effect of this height increase on lateral and longitudinal load transfer as well as any pitch, roll, yaw moments/dynamics.

I suspect there could be some legitamate scenarios where moving mass inboard has a positive impact on dynamics. It just depends on how it's done and how much inboard it moved, vs how much higher. You really have to do the simulations.

With that said, I lean massively towards an aerodynamic motivation which will soon be revealed.

Red Bull is improving Pitch&Yaw Intertia with this, which is a key factor for the performance of a race car alongside the CoG. The first to realize the big importance of pitch&yaw inertia for a F1 cars performance were Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne 25 years ago. I think that Red Bull have improved performance by reducing Pitch&Yaw Inertia more than they "sacrificed CoG". With the ground effect cars, pitch&yaw inertia has certainly become even more important. So they found some gains in aero ("smaller sidepods"+ better pitch and yaw values) and also vehicle dynamics performance (pitch&yaw inertia) with that for loosing a little on the vehicle dynamics side (higher CoG), which resulted in an increase in performance in the end.

Interesting image about RB20s possible cooling layout:

https://postimg.cc/5Y7skZ57

This article seems relevant to this discussion
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/zero ... evolution/

RedBull may have found several different benefits (improved turn-in, pitch/raw inertia, aero) from all of the changes they've made to their cooling architecture. Fascinating stuff!!!

Somehow it's funny - we explain something in this forum and an hour or two later an article appears in the F1 press where they repeat exactly that. Or one of the experts suddenly says exactly what we say here. That was the case with my post about Yaw/Pitch Inertia and what I said about Red Bull's concept and Scarbs suddenly repeating almost the same words shortly afterwards... Coincidence? Not so much because I've never heard the race.com talk about things like Yaw and Pitch Inertia or anything like that.

[f1isgood]

Somehow I can't shake the feeling that the article potentially has taken inspiration from here simply because the reporter of that article (Scott) usually does not do technical discussion. That is mostly Mark Hughes/Gary Anderson. Although I might be wrong on that one.

[Andi76]

Somehow I can't shake the feeling that the article potentially has taken inspiration from here simply because the reporter of that article (Scott) usually does not do technical discussion. That is mostly Mark Hughes/Gary Anderson. Although I might be wrong on that one.

I now believe that too, because this is the second time this week that something like this has happened. What's more, the article is wrong. Because the CoG of the Red Bull was certainly not "kept low" with these measures. I can't put more weight on top and keep the CoG low at the same time. Red Bull's CoG is definitely higher than Ferrari's, for example, and probably also that of the RB19. But this has been compensated for by lower yaw/pitch inertia because these parts sit closer to the CoG and by "offsetting" these parts they have been able to increase the undercut and reduce the sidepods which brings corresponding benefits in aerodynamics and drag. As always with the design of an F1 car, it's about the best compromise/trade-off and here aero and yaw/pitch inertia advantages have been cleverly "swapped" for disadvantages in the CoG, so that in the end a performance advantage emerges. And that's exactly the job of an F1 chief designer and he has to coordinate the various departments and development in this respect and have the corresponding ideas on how to implement this! So the question for me is whether Craig Skinner or actually Adrian Newey should get the credit for this, because the chief designer is actually the one whose job it is to come up with such ideas and concepts. The Technical Director and Chief Technical Officer actually only "approve" them and give the Chief Designer certain directions, but do not deal with the concept designs per se.

[CjC]

Sorry if it’s already been discussed (I’m not a follower of this thread)

Where are the hinges for the floor edge skirt on the RB20? To me they look incorporated in the skirt and the actual floor compared to the over the top rings they used last year?

[Andi76]

I will be interested to see how RB evolve more than any other team since they decided to make some big changed to their designs (while keeping some of the fundamentals very much the same.what do they have planned.

None of this is surprising. Red Bull's concept became the only right one with the TD039 as it was far less dependent on low ride heights. While everyone else was thrown back and had to waste development capacity on correcting or adapting their concepts, Red Bull could simply develop further. Of course, this means you have developments in the drawer that you can simply "pull out" and in F1 you only do this when it is necessary. If you have a one-second lead, you don't need to make any major improvements. In the same way, if an opponent has something illegal on the car and you are 1 second faster anyway, you don't do anything about it. The best example of this is Michelin's tires from 2002/2003, which were built in such a way that their contact patch increased beyond the maximum size specified in the rules. Bridgestone and Ferrari already knew about this in 2002, but why say anything when you are much faster anyway? You'd rather save it until you need it, which wasn't until 2003. It's similar now with Red Bull. While others were busy adapting and correcting their concepts in 2022, they were able to continue developing undisturbed. Therefore, now that the opponents have come closer, they will bring some of the developments that they would normally have been ready for much earlier, but have developed "in reserve" due to the big lead. The only danger here is that these developments will not be as good as planed in reality. Or not work as you thought or that an opponent suddenly takes two steps at once. But Red Bull certainly still has one or two developments up its sleeve. Anything else would surprise me and would be grossly negligent.