Christian Horner under Investigation

[Wouter]

Have I missed something?
I don't know that anyone from Red Bull has said that.

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yes BBC Sport said Red Bull cited dishonesty as the reason given to her for suspending her. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426

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Okay. So Red Bull did not.

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Indeed. From the BBC:
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The woman who accused team principal Christian Horner of inappropriate and controlling behaviour has been suspended by Red Bull.

"The company cannot comment on this internal matter," a Red Bull spokesperson said on Thursday.

BBC Sport has learned the reason given by Red Bull to the employee was that she had been dishonest.

[Wouter]

yes BBC Sport said Red Bull cited dishonesty as the reason given to her for suspending her. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426

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Okay. So Red Bull did not.

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link?

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You gave us yourself the link from the BBC.

[Wouter]

It's hard to know isn't it. If we believe Red Bull GMBH when they say she was being dishonest, then yes she was presumably part of it.

And then there's Ford and that pressure, the KC and his reputation, and the fact that Red Bull is all about brand, so they have a LOT to lose if they got caught covering up sexual abuse. And just imagine, if she goes to court and produces those messages in the original undeniable form, what a fallout that would be, after the Drinks Company dismissed it and suspended her.

So my thinking is still very tentative, but I think perhaps she ended up falling out with Christian, or she had a bit of Jos on the side, something like that, but it wasn't really coercive abuse as Jos wanted as his weapon.

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I can't follow your story. Do you think the woman wasn't abused by Horner? She pretended?

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well I am juggling evidence. The point about the screenshots is they're just images, jpgs, they're not conclusive are they? Anyone can shop them. Then if you try and get all the other factors together, you end up with uncertainties and possibilities.

There are a few knowns, and one of them is Jos wanting to get Horner out. Another one is that the original chats haven't been produced, apart from possibly to the KC. A third one is that at this point Jos is out and Christian is still there. Then you have the factors I just mentioned.

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You certainly don't know that Jos wasn't there last weekend because he had to drive a rally that he won by force majeure?!
Jos also said the apps in the mails were real and Max replied with saying his father never lies, which is a fact.

[izzy]

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You gave us yourself the link from the BBC.

lol, yes it's a weird thing in this thread but a kind of insight, that generally we all come into it wishing for a particular truth and tend to blank inconvenient stuff. But actually we probably all feel the same values, just either we don't want her to have been abused or we want the abuser nailed.

[izzy]

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You certainly don't know that Jos wasn't there last weekend because he had to drive a rally that he won by force majeure?!
Jos also said the apps in the mails were real and Max replied with saying his father never lies, which is a fact.

on 26th February he wasn't even entered in that rally, according to their Facebook. genius PR

And yes Max, not saying his dad made it all up, I'm not counting as evidence sorry

[ME4ME]

Jos also said the apps in the mails were real

Is there a source or a quote for this?

[Wouter]

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You certainly don't know that Jos wasn't there last weekend because he had to drive a rally that he won by force majeure?!
Jos also said the apps in the mails were real and Max replied with saying his father never lies, which is a fact.

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on 26th February he wasn't even entered in that rally, according to their Facebook. genius PR

And yes Max, not saying his dad made it all up, I'm not counting as evidence sorry

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I was talking about last weekend as you did too!
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Jos Verstappen reigns supreme at Hannuit Rally: 'Went really well'

Published on 11 March 2024 by Stefan Meens

Jos Verstappen claimed a convincing victory at the Hannuit Rally. Alongside co-driver Renaud Jamoul, the 51-year-old won ten out of the twelve timed stages in their Skoda Fabia RS Rally2. Runner-up John Wartique, trailed Verstappen by 58 seconds.

“I’m very happy. We learned a lot and the team operated fantastic. The collaboration with Renaud is amazing so it couldn’t be better”, said a delighted Jos. “It’s the first time driving this rally but it’s a great event with beautiful stages and a couple of really difficult ones.

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"on 26th February he wasn't even entered in that rally, according to their Facebook. genius PR"
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OMG! Facebook!!
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Jos fifth in Haspengouw Rally: 'Very satisfied'

Published on 26 February 2024 by Misha van der Kroon

Jos Verstappen has finished the Haspengouw Rally in fifth place. The 51-year-old driver drove his Skoda Fabia RS Rally2 car over the stages in central Belgium together with his navigator Renaud Jamoul. Cédric Cherain was the fastest during the day on the slippery and therefore tricky course.

It is the first event in the Belgian Rally Championship (BRC), in which Jos is participating again this year. He says: “The stages in Haspengouw are familiar to me, and our notes are good, so we’ll see how things go. The car feels good and the collaboration with my navigator is going well.”

[Wouter]

Jos also said the apps in the mails were real

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Is there a source or a quote for this?

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Yes. Jos gave a big interview in The Limburger (Dutch newssite). It is behind a paywall, but I think it is this article, but I will try to find a way to find the quote.

https://www.limburger.nl/cnt/dmf20240304_96354520

[PapayaFan481]

FWIW I do not see any evidence that the leaked images were fake, however I accept that they could be.

If they are real though, then my opinion is that Horner needs to go.

But some posters really could do with reassessing their moral compasses.

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You write a very long story here, but I think 90% of the people here (or more) think exactly the same as what I have made red,
so your entire argument applies to that maybe 10% or even less. You can't expect everyone to have the same opinion.

Well done on completely missing the point of my post then.

I would certainly expect 100% of people to find sexual harassment in the workplace unacceptable. However there are, as you say, about 10% on here who seem happy to dismiss it as "flirting" or "banter".

You got that this is the point I was making right?

[CHT]

Does it mean the "women" was being used in this corporate tussle?

It's hard to know isn't it. If we believe Red Bull GMBH when they say she was being dishonest, then yes she was presumably part of it.

And then there's Ford and that pressure, the KC and his reputation, and the fact that Red Bull is all about brand, so they have a LOT to lose if they got caught covering up sexual abuse. And just imagine, if she goes to court and produces those messages in the original undeniable form, what a fallout that would be, after the Drinks Company dismissed it and suspended her.

So my thinking is still very tentative, but I think perhaps she ended up falling out with Christian, or she had a bit of Jos on the side, something like that, but it wasn't really coercive abuse as Jos wanted as his weapon.

Make perfect sense, likely to be the case..can't imagine RB will risk their brand image to cover up this story that had gone so public within the F1 community.

[chrstphrln]

yes BBC Sport said Red Bull cited dishonesty as the reason given to her for suspending her. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426

Okay. So Red Bull did not.

link?

I know.
But the article only says that the editor claims to have learnt that this was the reason given by Red Bull.
But we know from experience that this claim by an editor means nothing.

So the answer is: No, Red Bull has not confirmed it.
Exactly what is also stated in the article.

[Wouter]

Jos also said the apps in the mails were real

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Is there a source or a quote for this?

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I have found it in The (Dutch) Limburger. I have translated it. It was in this article: https://archive.is/ZAv2P

Horner is said to suspect Verstappen senior of leaking information about the independent investigation to the press. He also takes into account that the same Verstappen would have played a role in sending around the anonymous email. Verstappen has denied such allegations both internally and against De Limburger, but on Friday evening this still led to a confrontation between the two men.

It upsets Verstappen that Horner is increasingly playing the role of victim, while he is convinced that the apps sent around are indeed the real apps. “I know it is so. There is only one person to blame for all the unrest here and that is Horner. I don't see how this is going to work anymore. The whole tent is on fire at the first race, even though we have another championship to win this year. That doesn't benefit anyone. Certainly not Max. The whole team is being torn apart like this.”

[izzy]

You certainly don't know that Jos wasn't there last weekend because he had to drive a rally that he won by force majeure?!
Jos also said the apps in the mails were real and Max replied with saying his father never lies, which is a fact.
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OMG! Facebook!!
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it's the official FB page of the Hannut rally, with the full entry list, and Jos wasn't on it. So, it wasn't in his diary for ages and him unluckily having this prior commitment And I saw him say somewhere he's expecting to be doing some more rallies now. And I couldn't help noticing that Max wasn't threatening to leave if Jos wasn't staying hanging around the garage.

But what do you think of the other points I made? I mean, there are two forms of the chats aren't there, a semi-public one and a secret one. One is editable and one is, guess what, not! You really think they're identical? If they are, we could do with an explanation for one of them being secret, couldn't we?

Cos on the face of it, Red Bull are way, way, way out on a limb dismissing the complaint, if the actual chat is the same.

[izzy]

Okay. So Red Bull did not.

link?

I know.
But the article only says that the editor claims to have learnt that this was the reason given by Red Bull.
But we know from experience that this claim by an editor means nothing.

So the answer is: No, Red Bull has not confirmed it.
Exactly what is also stated in the article.

well, strictly speaking you said Red Bull did not say it. That was the link I was asking for And for us everything is hearsay to one extent or another, so unless you're going all nihilistic saying 'we know nothing' then BBC Sport is about as credible as it gets. They suspended her for dishonesty, they told her. Pretty strong, when you think about it.

[chrstphrln]

No, I primarily contradicted the claim that Red Bull had said that.
There's a difference between someone saying something and someone else claiming to have said something.
But that should be clear enough now.