2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[JPower]

I like Ferrari's strategy of firing Sainz, who is their better driver, in favor of Leclerc who is inferior and probably costs more.
I dream of one day being able to understand this team's magnificent decisions.

There is zero objective evidence that Sainz is a superior driver to Leclerc, or that Leclerc is inferior. It’s purely a subjective opinion of yours that shouldn’t be mistaken as fact. You’re entitled to an opinion but your opinion is not entitled to be true.

One race weekend does not define a driver. By essentially any empirical measure, Leclerc has been the superior driver over the past 2-3+ seasons, based on qualifying, races, and net points (especially when adjusting for mechanicals, strategy decisions, etc).

And that’s to take absolutely nothing from Sainz, who is a tremendous driver in his own right.

And people are surprised why a certain very rabid fanbase is disliked in Ferrari threads.
Carlos did an amazing job today and deserves all the praise for it. But saying that he's a superior driver because of this one race is just outright lying and inciting.

Where were all these people when he couldn't outqualify his teammate for 8 races straight before Australia and placed higher than him only once when Charles had brake issues in Bahrain?

Can't even praise your favourite driver for good performance without making it a cheap shot at others. Pathetic.

Rabid fanbase? Where? Who?

[Sphere3758]

You're right.

From all of Ferrari's decisions, picking Leclerc over Sainz is perhaps the least questionable of them all.
It's just that, even though Leclerc scored more points, Sainz makes his limitations appear more obvious: He is far more talented than Carlos, but often unable to capitalize on that.
To me the most worryng of all are his poor performances seemingly from lack of mental resilience, like constantly crashing the car on his own, often in situations of high pressure, which really makes me wonder if he is able to fight for a championship, unless given a far superior car than everyone else.

As for the decision to hire Hamilton in the first place, I can't understand that as well.
It's not like it's the drivers costing Ferrari their performances, and Hamilton may create more issues than he solves, like increased wages, as well as the fact that, as demonstrated by Hamilton vs Alonso, Hamilton vs Rosberg and Leclerc vs Vettel, both drivers aren't okay with being number 2. And I'm pretty sure that, by the time the honeymoon is over and Hamilton realizes Ferrari won't be able to bring him another title, the situation can only get worse.

Regarding your first point, that is just not true. He has just had the luck of the draw in a few crucial situations. Like today, where he outqualified Charles for the first time in 8 races and Redbull decide to have an off day. But on the contrary, Charles would have beaten Max on pure pace in Vegas but the universe conspired a safety car for him at the worse possible time. I wouldnt even dignify the rest of that with an answer, go check who amongst the two crashed the car last.


Regarding Lewis, the decision is a lot more nuanced and a way for Ferrari to attract more British engineers to move to the team. They want to create a powerhouse team to attract engineering talent. Whether you believe it or not, the teams certainly rate Lewis a lot higher than Carlos and they have the data to back it. Engineers would find the prospect of designing a car for Lewis Hamilton a lot more exciting than for Carlos Sainz, that is the truth

I like the fact that you made some really good points, but the part about Leclerc being prone to accidents you won't dignify with an answer because apparently he was not the last of the two to have a crash.

A bit too tired (and lazy) to list things to be honest. Compared to Max, I would agree that Charles needs to up his consistency (with the caveat that a lot of his inconsistency is team related) if he wants to challenge for a title in a close race. But Carlos is not consistent at all, dude had a decent consistent stretch from Zandvoort to Singapore last year, but was highly inconsistent before and after.

Charles has had one major race error in over 2 years, in France 2022. He had a small incident at Imola 2022 and a first lap incident at Australia 23. You can even find 2 examples for Max having incidents like the last 2 in the same timeframe. So while France 2022 was very bad, you make it sound like he crashes all the time. Sainz has had more errors in the races in the same timeframe btw.

This is just from a simple google search for 2023: https://imgur.com/HfdYm1L

Yes, he has had a couple of qualifying crashes last year, but those were before Ferrari realized the issue they had with their floor which was highly inconsistent with a oversteery setup. This was one of those cases where the issues were being detected on track, it would be harsh to completely blame those on Charles.

[f1316]

I don’t know why we have arguments about individual drivers in a team thread - this is about the team, which is the most important thing. Personally I’ve never been a huge Sainz fan but he seems to be getting better and better and this was his best race imho.


To my original point though, the car is looking good, which is the main thing. There’s still a touch of ultimate performance missing and the nature of this race helped; will never know Max’s true pace but Checo was nowhere and I suspect the setups tweaks they made for quali, chasing the car balance, would have had a similar impact on Max during the race (albeit to a much lesser extent). All things being normal, they still have a margin but Ferrari are thereabouts and don’t need a huge step to be properly competitive.

Suspect Suzuka will be harder but the change of direction is good and, dependant on the upgrade ebb and flow, could at least mean a modicum of pressure is put on Max.

[jambuka]

I like Ferrari's strategy of firing Sainz, who is their better driver, in favor of Leclerc who is inferior and probably costs more.
I dream of one day being able to understand this team's magnificent decisions.

Is this a joke ?

[FDD]

This should be posted again

https://i.ibb.co/MNMf7fT/fred.jpg

[Alonsismo]

I like Ferrari's strategy of firing Sainz, who is their better driver, in favor of Leclerc who is inferior and probably costs more.
I dream of one day being able to understand this team's magnificent decisions.

Is this a joke ?

is the truth and the reality

[FDD]

Plenty of time to fix it back for the race since front wing clicks are one of the accepted changes in parc ferme

Absolutely, but if that did not solve the problems and it did not, there is nothing to do after Q to find the feeling that CL lost, except to turn back that five clicks or something in between.
Something happened, maybe changed tire pressure had impact and they did not find the proper set-up for CL only, obviously CS made big improvement.
However excellent race by Ferrari in general, huge improvement of the team in respect to last year.
Waiting for Suzuka "test", hoping that they are reading the car better and learn more regarding the car set-up which is crucial before any major upgrades.

LEC was on the same pace as SAI in the race.

Tire warmup cycle was the uncontested king for Ferrari, if either driver pushed right away they would have burned through tires faster. Whatever Ferrari had in qualifying, it wasn’t as bad in the race, LEC 3rd stint was great and the speed with which he dispensed Gasly and the Haas at the start of the 2nd was also great.

Only real issue LEC had was a bad decision in the first stint to lounge inside T9 on Lando that made no sense while he would have passed afrer T10 with DRS, lost enough to force the early pit otherwise both Ferraris would have had a more comfortable race.

Think You are right on that and I'll add that without that bad deceision CL wpuld have better race pace than CS.
The basic mistake was in Q, wrong set-up or CL driving mistake or mix of both we don't know.
Alos I think that Max was not so faster (was still not fully wake ) on the first 2 laps before the problem, like he was in the first 2 races.

[edu2703]

Any available data on Leclerc x Sainz battle from 2021 to 2023 shows that Leclerc has better results in all aspects, therefore the decision to keep Leclerc instead of Sainz is fair, correct and based on pure merit. If Sainz decides to wake up this season, beating Leclerc in every race, it's already too late for that as Hamilton and Leclerc's contract has already been signed and Ferrari will never reverse it.

You can question firing Sainz for Hamilton, but choosing Leclerc over Sainz to stay there isn't much to discuss. It's a no-brainer decision, whether you like it or not or if you think that 2 races and a circumstantial victory erase 3 seasons of data.

[Seanspeed]

That how it goes at Ferrari, if Leclerc is not beating his teammate every week most washed up driver on the grid

RH2H 2023 11-5 where both drivers finished
QH2H 2023 14-6 when both driver made it to Q2 or higher

On the other hand Sainz deserves a top seat, it will be criminal not to have a seat in a top 4 team in my opinion, with at least equeal status. If it were on recent performance alone I'd have him over Hamilton any day of the week. But I'm reasonable enough to understand that deal is bigger than just on track performance.

Winning is motivation and it's so important from a Morale point of view. Humans are emotional beings, they just work better when they are winning. Motivation & momentum goes a long way in every field of life. Already reports of Fred wanting to bring upgrades forward. The hunger is there, I love it. The championship is still long, 21 races remaining. I know we aren't favourites at this point, but the progress over the last 6-7 months as been astronomical. We need to ride this wave because inevitably it will come down again.

As for the qualifying performance, you see the importance of having track position. I still think we can make a small compromise to favour qualy trim. The lack of dirty air will likely offset the small added levels of tyre deg.

I dont know if Sainz necessarily deserves a 'top seat', there's a lot of good drivers on the grid, but I do think going to Mercedes makes the most sense for both sides. Red Bull is an option if he just hopes to win some races when Max has an off day/bad luck, but I think that's honestly going to be a very demoralizing seat for any potential driver to take. Max is simply that good.

Anyways, it's good to be back at 'track position matters', cuz it absolutely didn't last year. lol Basically, it means we've finally got race pace to compete. And thus where we qualify can actually have a bigger impact. Feels so much better!

[Andres125sx]

Yesterday Sainz won the race, and Ferrari did an awesome and highly unexpected 1-2

Yet I´ve read a lot more messages trying to justify how much better Leclerc is to Sainz, than congratulations to Sainz... or even to Ferrari. At Ferrari F1 Team thread


Congratulations to Ferrari and specially to Sainz, who did an awsome effort and job and won the race only 2 weeks after a surgery!

"Very proud of the team, happy to be in a one-two with Charles. It shows that hard work pays off. Life, sometimes it's crazy," Sainz said.

https://www.thestandard.com.hk/section- ... -for-Sainz

[edu2703]

Yet I´ve read a lot more messages trying to justify how much better Leclerc is to Sainz, than congratulations to Sainz... or even to Ferrari. At Ferrari F1 Team thread

What I saw was exactly the opposite. Everyone was congratulating Sainz, but then Sainz fans came to use the victory to show that he is much superior than Leclerc, criticize Ferrari for firing the 'wrong driver', and a series of insults to Ferarri from them. I still haven't found a single one of them congratulating Ferrari, as they are all busy cursing.

What I find funny about the Leclerc x Sainz discussion is that there is even a discussion about who is the best driver when any data you take from the last three seasons shows Leclerc is superior. Using subjective data such as the driver who doesn't make mistakes under pressure, who is more constant, etc. when this isn't indicative of bringing better results for the team.

Remembering that we are still at the beginning of the season and two races and a circumstantial win doesn't magically erase the last three seasons. At the end of the year, we will see the results of Leclerc X Sainz battle and whether they are enough to reignite the discussion about who is the best driver. But still, nothing Sainz does this season will change the outcome for 2025: Hamilton and Leclerc will drive for Ferrari and Sainz will have to find a seat elsewhere.

[politburo]

We won the race. Both drivers were fantastic, no need to fight over who is better. The mission is to fight RedBull, Fred Messiah has us less than 15 points behind after 3 races with upgrades to come.

The future is bright.

[Waz]

The car looked really good, incredible result, and Sainz was very impressive.

Tire deg appears well under control, LeClerc picking up fastest lap right near the end again on fairly old tires is a great sign.

It also seems like they're learning how to run more aggressively during the race, and not just manage tires in case. It's a bold approach, and maybe the biggest reason it feels like this season could be game on.

[Cs98]

Regarding your first point, that is just not true. He has just had the luck of the draw in a few crucial situations. Like today, where he outqualified Charles for the first time in 8 races and Redbull decide to have an off day. But on the contrary, Charles would have beaten Max on pure pace in Vegas but the universe conspired a safety car for him at the worse possible time. I wouldnt even dignify the rest of that with an answer, go check who amongst the two crashed the car last.


Regarding Lewis, the decision is a lot more nuanced and a way for Ferrari to attract more British engineers to move to the team. They want to create a powerhouse team to attract engineering talent. Whether you believe it or not, the teams certainly rate Lewis a lot higher than Carlos and they have the data to back it. Engineers would find the prospect of designing a car for Lewis Hamilton a lot more exciting than for Carlos Sainz, that is the truth

I like the fact that you made some really good points, but the part about Leclerc being prone to accidents you won't dignify with an answer because apparently he was not the last of the two to have a crash.

A bit too tired (and lazy) to list things to be honest. Compared to Max, I would agree that Charles needs to up his consistency (with the caveat that a lot of his inconsistency is team related) if he wants to challenge for a title in a close race. But Carlos is not consistent at all, dude had a decent consistent stretch from Zandvoort to Singapore last year, but was highly inconsistent before and after.

Charles has had one major race error in over 2 years, in France 2022. He had a small incident at Imola 2022 and a first lap incident at Australia 23. You can even find 2 examples for Max having incidents like the last 2 in the same timeframe. So while France 2022 was very bad, you make it sound like he crashes all the time. Sainz has had more errors in the races in the same timeframe btw.

This is just from a simple google search for 2023: https://imgur.com/HfdYm1L

Yes, he has had a couple of qualifying crashes last year, but those were before Ferrari realized the issue they had with their floor which was highly inconsistent with a oversteery setup. This was one of those cases where the issues were being detected on track, it would be harsh to completely blame those on Charles.

Every single one of those headlines in the picture you linked is from practice You should read what you link.

Also, since you mentioned it. Can you give me an example of Max having an incident like Australia 2023 and Imola 2022 in the last two seasons?

[SharkY]

Also, since you mentioned it. Can you give me an example of Max having an incident like Australia 2023 and Imola 2022 in the last two seasons?

As for Imola-like, I'd say that Spain 2022 would have the same caliber - losing control of the car in the corner. And in just 2 years there's no Australia equivalent, but why just 2 years? Since September 2022 Max didn't really have to fight for position more than a couple of times. He mostly whizzes past with DRS. But given Max's F1 history it's really weird seeing him as an example of racing virtue, when he often has the "either give way or we crash" attitude.

I'm really tired of that "who's more incident prone" debate. When drivers have a car that they're not happy with, they are either slow or they'll push the limits and sometimes mistakes will happen.