2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Vanja #66]

Thank you, Vanja for giving us your thoughts about this matter.

All I was doing was putting together what Newey said about the need to have a stable platform (hence the fact that he said it was focused mainly on the suspension) and what former F1 engineer Gary Anderson said about their lack of knowledge regarding floor stalling when the downforce is at the peak and induce the porpoising effect ...

In addition, many other voices on the paddock said there must be a deeper integration between the floor and the suspension for these ground-effect cars to have the best results and not be treated like different areas of the car ...

What Newey said was for public and Gary A is wrong way more often than he should be. It was clear since Barcelona 2022 test that it will be critical to handle bouncing and every team understood the importance of ride-height control. Step two was making the car soft at low speed (to enhance mechanical cornering grip) and also very stiff at high speed (to prevent bottoming and plank wear). But there are boundaries to suspension design and they are dictated by tyres. As we've seen with Ferrari last year, poor tyre life and/or performance on one compound or certain conditions is mostly related to suspension and setup even with these cars. Mercedes doesn't have these problems outside the scope of their setup, they lack floor load within the ride height window they designed the car around, they lack the floor design that does not trigger excessive bouncing at low ride heights and they lack rear end stability in certain conditions. It's floor aero, not suspension

McLaren were absolute shiite in early 2023 remember? Look where they are now after understanding the ground effect better. It's simply too early to write off Mercedes. Lets say something about them in Bahrain 2025.

McLaren solved most of their problems by ditching the wrong Key in their team... Ever since Austria 23 it was clear they are onto something and Silverstone later confirmed they figured things out. Never in 2023 did Mercedes look like they genuinely figured things out and they still don't. Meanwhile, Top 3 know what they are doing and are focused solely on adding performance.

They have a six month time-line to get it right. The rest of the car might be a rocketship and just waiting on that one teeny bit of a break-through to unlock it's
Championship winning potential.

Damn, is it Groundhog Day?

[Venturiation]

good on hamilton leaving this toxic team that hates him

Come on now, don't be like that Let's get the timeline straight, Hamilton left and only after did Verstappen become a legitimate option post Horner drama. That being said, Toto would be absolutely foolish not to offer Verstappen the world with a cherry on top. This is a no-brainer for Mercedes.

they refused hamilton as ambassador when making the 2024 contract

[PlatinumZealot]

Hamilton doesn't lik media duty so I don't see those silly rumours having any truth to them.

Hamilton always flirted with Ferrari. It's where the Legends go. It must be a dream to drive and win a WDC with them. Who would turn that down? It's the perfect completion for LH's career. As a fan I'm incredible excited to see him winning in Red.

I was never a fan of Mercedes before they hired the "all star team". They have long since left one by one... Nothing really to get too excited about anymore for Mercedes. Lewis as well goes where he trade winds blow... Ferrari is on the up!!

[Venturiation]

Hamilton doesn't lik media duty so I don't see those silly rumours having any truth to them.

Hamilton always flirted with Ferrari. It's where the Legends go. It must be a dream to drive and win a WDC with them. Who would turn that down? It's the perfect completion for LH's career. As a fan I'm incredible excited to see him winning in Red.

I was never a fan of Mercedes before they hired the "all star team". They have long since left one by one... Nothing really to get too excited about anymore for Mercedes. Lewis as well goes where he trade winds blow... Ferrari is on the up!!

He is the one that asked brand ambassador, that means doing ads for their cars and all that even after retiring
And Ferrari accepted it in the new contract

[PlatinumZealot]

Where is LH quoted saying that? Brand ambassador?!
He already represented Mercedes passively and raked in millions in Merchandize and car sales by his exploits on track. A brand ambassador before 40 years old is a sad existince. Such titles are in motorsport for old men like Coulthard and Jackie Stewart.

[Luscion]

Where is LH quoted saying that? Brand ambassador?!
He already represented Mercedes passively and raked in millions in Merchandize and car sales by his exploits on track. A brand ambassador before 40 years old is a sad existince. Such titles are in motorsport for old men like Coulthard and Jackie Stewart.

It was reported during the week of Lewis announcing he signed with Ferrari that he asked for a brand ambassador role after retirement with Merc and that apparently Merc denied him, this was only reported from one article iirc and nobody else reported it.

[ringo]

My god the irony is so thick in Ham’s words. He claims to be inspired by their “not giving up”, yet he himself bailed on the team and signed with a rival before this season even started. SMH. What a coward.

“ So every time we take one or two sets forward, it’d take five back. It’s been hugely frustrating, I think, for the engineers.

“But I think what’s been inspiring is that they’ve just not given up. They’re continuing to show up every day and give it their best and that’s all you can ever ask.”

The irony is from you
The team abandoned him because they wanted to replace him with antonelli by not giving him a contract
Anyone in hamilton position would have left before 2025 and go at Ferrari for 2024

You’re assuming that as contract details and future actions within a team are private. In fact it’s looking less and less like Antonelli will be at Merc in 2025.

How is the irony with me when Ham is the one bailing on the team when he had his moment to stay and see through the struggle? Be there for the team that was there for him, handing him a car he could not lose in for almost a decade. Then he says how proud he is of them for staying with it and continuing to fight, while at the same time leaving the team for a rival. What part of that makes me ironic? He’s the one who is abandoning ship when the going gets tough. It’s what a coward does and it’s why I called him out on it.

And no, not everyone in his position would bail. Guys with character and integrity would dig in deeper and try harder for the team that served them so well for so long to see them back to competitiveness. Stick it out and be a hero to help bring them back. Nope. Ham covertly uses an exit clause to grab another guys seat (who quite frankly deserves to stay at Ferrari) to try to force another title. This is next level greed. Disgusting behavior afaic. I hope CS beats CL just to render further how messed up this whole situation is.

I am not sure why a driver changing teams makes you so upset.
Who are these others guys with character and integrity you speak of?
Here's a list of flagrant team swappers:
Vettel, Alonso, Raikonen, Carlos Sainz, Ricciardo, Gasly, Hulkenberg, Button, and honorable mentions to the great Senna and Fangio for being the most opportunistic.
It's a good think when a driver can leave when things get tough. It means they are marketable and have options.

[ringo]

good on hamilton leaving this toxic team that hates him

Ambassador what?

I really dont think Max is changing teams.
I think Hamilton's move took the wind out if Max's media magnetism and the next best thing to bring attention to Max is to cook up a move for him also. It just wont have the same impact or Buzz. Mercedes is worse than Redbull. It makes zero sense for him to move.
I also suspect Russel would love to have Max as teammate to prove himself.
But not happening. Redbull also has more cooler stuff to do for young people. Mercedes isnt really a hip brand for youth. Hamilton brought that young creative energy to Mercedes and he will leave a vacuum behind when he goes. Max and George aren't really a marketable pair as a Lewis and Charles.

Notheless Mercedes may well be suffering in 2026 at this rate. The engines will be simpler and the chance to get a power advantage will be minimized because of that. I dont see Merc making a good chassis if ground effect will be in the 2026 regs. Merc is slowly reverting to the BAR Honda days of Sato and Button; earth dreams honda even!

[Cs98]

good on hamilton leaving this toxic team that hates him

Come on now, don't be like that Let's get the timeline straight, Hamilton left and only after did Verstappen become a legitimate option post Horner drama. That being said, Toto would be absolutely foolish not to offer Verstappen the world with a cherry on top. This is a no-brainer for Mercedes.

they refused hamilton as ambassador when making the 2024 contract

How do you know? You are taking media speculation for fact. But I can imagine if you want to attract the hottest property on the market to your team you need to throw in some extra incentive for them to move. Ferrari seemingly did so for Lewis and Toto is probably trying the same with Max now.

[F1Krof]

They have a six month time-line to get it right. The rest of the car might be a rocketship and just waiting on that one teeny bit of a break-through to unlock it's
Championship winning potential.

Kudos for your optimism.

[Sevach]

Where is LH quoted saying that? Brand ambassador?!
He already represented Mercedes passively and raked in millions in Merchandize and car sales by his exploits on track. A brand ambassador before 40 years old is a sad existince. Such titles are in motorsport for old men like Coulthard and Jackie Stewart.

It was reported during the week of Lewis announcing he signed with Ferrari that he asked for a brand ambassador role after retirement with Merc and that apparently Merc denied him, this was only reported from one article iirc and nobody else reported it.

Hamilton is already a brand embassador while he drives for Mercedes, if they request him to pose next to the new AMG product and say how exciting it is, he must do it.

I get the feeling there was a bit of lowballing from Toto/Mercedes, and in fairness Hamilton was probably asking for the moon... Including Mercedes paying extra for something they already have(Hamilton as a marketing tool).
In the lowballing, they probably pushed the "brand embassador" thing for the future, once he retired they would offer the extra 10 or 20 mil a year he was asking to be brand embassador and keep endorsing Mercs.

[mkay]

Where is LH quoted saying that? Brand ambassador?!
He already represented Mercedes passively and raked in millions in Merchandize and car sales by his exploits on track. A brand ambassador before 40 years old is a sad existince. Such titles are in motorsport for old men like Coulthard and Jackie Stewart.

It was reported during the week of Lewis announcing he signed with Ferrari that he asked for a brand ambassador role after retirement with Merc and that apparently Merc denied him, this was only reported from one article iirc and nobody else reported it.

Hamilton is already a brand embassador while he drives for Mercedes, if they request him to pose next to the new AMG product and say how exciting it is, he must do it.

I get the feeling there was a bit of lowballing from Toto/Mercedes, and in fairness Hamilton was probably asking for the moon... Including Mercedes paying extra for something they already have(Hamilton as a marketing tool).
In the lowballing, they probably pushed the "brand embassador" thing for the future, once he retired they would offer the extra 10 or 20 mil a year he was asking to be brand embassador and keep endorsing Mercs.

That's only subject to what is agreed in his driver contract. I am sure they have a set number of sponsor days/events per year.

A brand ambassador deal would have meant more Merc advertising duties for Hamilton. One of the key attraction of Hamilton as Merc brand ambassador would be that he won all his titles using Merc engines, 6 titles driving Mercedes chassis and has only raced Mercedes engines his entire career (even in most junior formulae). He was a Merc driver through and through.

[atanatizante]

Some updates picked up from the internet quoting the following:

- "They couldn't use the full potential of the PU due to unexpected issues related to the heat produced by the lower electromechanical components. The customer teams have also experienced the same issues from Bahrein onwards once they used the high PU modes in the qualy and the race.

- They are also missing a lot of data when it comes to relating the engine failure with an electrical issue or a system malfunction that inevitably created an imbalance in the car total. This could be down to the reshuffle of their internal components which are hidden under the bodywork and because the car has lots of new aerodynamic surfaces due to the new concept car these components are not able to guarantee that the engine would reach the necessary optimal temperature. Therefore the team is not able to push the engine to its absolute maximum ...

- Analyzing the instability of the car we would be looking at a very interesting pattern when the car turns right it suffers from a very light rear end and an understeer on its way but when the load of the car shifted to the left it tended to slide on the asphalt and generate oversteer something that Karun Chandok from Sky F1 elaborated on.

- Then if look further at the W15 we will find a car that has lots of deficits at the rear end which makes the front end too pointy even though the team introduced what was dubbed to be a revolutionary approach in the sport a new front wing and an adjustable wishbone on the front suspension. What Mercedes needs to do here is understand the behavior of its two suspensions because as of now the engineers back in Brackley and Brickworth have not been able to optimize the working range of the new kinematic design of the rear axle that's been adopted to a push rod scheme the fact that the rear suspension is a push rod scheme goes to show that the stiffness to alleviate understeer and
keep the platform as stable as possible has different requirements in all gear ranges of the vehicle.

- Furthermore, if the team can modify the inclinations of the two wishbones as well as the push rod then the tires have the potential to find themselves in a much more optimized window where they'll be able to put more energy that has less degradation. In addition, the team will be working on making the front end less pointy and
unbalance the car towards the rear which would enable them to limit the oversteer they are struggling with ... "

[atanatizante]

Thank you, Vanja for giving us your thoughts about this matter.

All I was doing was putting together what Newey said about the need to have a stable platform (hence the fact that he said it was focused mainly on the suspension) and what former F1 engineer Gary Anderson said about their lack of knowledge regarding floor stalling when the downforce is at the peak and induce the porpoising effect ...

In addition, many other voices on the paddock said there must be a deeper integration between the floor and the suspension for these ground-effect cars to have the best results and not be treated like different areas of the car ...

What Newey said was for public and Gary A is wrong way more often than he should be. It was clear since Barcelona 2022 test that it will be critical to handle bouncing and every team understood the importance of ride-height control. Step two was making the car soft at low speed (to enhance mechanical cornering grip) and also very stiff at high speed (to prevent bottoming and plank wear). But there are boundaries to suspension design and they are dictated by tyres. As we've seen with Ferrari last year, poor tyre life and/or performance on one compound or certain conditions is mostly related to suspension and setup even with these cars. Mercedes doesn't have these problems outside the scope of their setup, they lack floor load within the ride height window they designed the car around, they lack the floor design that does not trigger excessive bouncing at low ride heights and they lack rear end stability in certain conditions. It's floor aero, not suspension

McLaren were absolute shiite in early 2023 remember? Look where they are now after understanding the ground effect better. It's simply too early to write off Mercedes. Lets say something about them in Bahrain 2025.

McLaren solved most of their problems by ditching the wrong Key in their team... Ever since Austria 23 it was clear they are onto something and Silverstone later confirmed they figured things out. Never in 2023 did Mercedes look like they genuinely figured things out and they still don't. Meanwhile, Top 3 know what they are doing and are focused solely on adding performance.

They have a six month time-line to get it right. The rest of the car might be a rocketship and just waiting on that one teeny bit of a break-through to unlock it's
Championship winning potential.

Damn, is it Groundhog Day?

What baffles me is that last year Blake Hinsey a former Formula 1 performance engineer at Red Bull Racing and Force India said that the F1 paddock is a small world for having many discussions between engineers at various teams hence the knowledge is easily transferred from a team to another. Not to mention that top figures in the business are switching teams often lately and yet Merc guys haven't figured out how to solve these problems 3 years in a row now ...

[atanatizante]

... they lack floor load within the ride height window they designed the car around, they lack the floor design that does not trigger excessive bouncing at low ride heights and they lack rear-end stability in certain conditions. It's floor aero, not suspension

Could it be that since this new ground effect car era they made a fundamental error focusing more on what downforce the Venturi tunnels would produce rather than knowing the fact that the key is to have a downforce level (or useful downforce as you said) that induce no bouncing/porpoising and focusing instead what diffuser could bring/add to the total downforce amount, by adopting the downwash solution, yearly having bigger sidepod undercut in order to get more high-velocity airflow to the back of the car, something that Red Bull team/Newey was king until 2022?