Flexiwings 2024

[SiLo]

Extra checks?

Steward comes and looks with his eyes, prods with his fingers, nods, leaves.

[JordanMugen]

This is gonna be a bigger nothingburger topic than the W13 zeropod midwing legality

Maybe. If so, why are Red Bull are so keen on the technical directive and why did Allison describe the realisation about using Ferrari and McLaren style front wing flexing to solve Mercedes' low to high speed balance problems as an "Oh God" moment on the F1 Nation Podcast?

Oh God, how can we've been so dumb kind of moment where you see the path forward and you should have seen it sooner.

- James Allison, F1 Nation

You suppose it is a nothingburger and NOT key to Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes recently closing the gap to Red Bull?

There will be a new technical verification in Barcelona, Austria and so on. Is it fair to say that Red Bull wants to clip Mercedes' wings? It's a funny pun, it has something satirical about it, but only the FIA can do that.

- Helmut Marko, quoted by FormulaPassion.it

Hopefully it is a nothingburger and the season remains close, for the good of the competition. On the other hand, I don't see why Red Bull would be advocating for a new TD on this matter against their three closest challengers (as Mercedes did in 2021 about Red Bull's flexi rear wing) if it was worth only a negligible amount of laptime.

The amount of laptime Aston Martin lost, with no longer their flexible nose cone, seemed to be significant in mid 2023.

[bluechris]

If a TD is needed then they must do it no matter who is gaining or losing

[BalazsSzaboF1]

Marko confirmed that Red Bull contacted the FIA regarding Mercedes' upgraded front wing.

https://www.f1technical.net/news/24811

[Cs98]

This is gonna be a bigger nothingburger topic than the W13 zeropod midwing legality

Maybe. If so, why are Red Bull are so keen on the technical directive and why did Allison describe the realisation about using Ferrari and McLaren style front wing flexing to solve Mercedes' low to high speed balance problems as an "Oh God" moment on the F1 Nation Podcast?

Oh God, how can we've been so dumb kind of moment where you see the path forward and you should have seen it sooner.

- James Allison, F1 Nation

You suppose it is a nothingburger and NOT key to Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes recently closing the gap to Red Bull?

He said more than that. He was asked directly about the front wing being a big part in that "oh god" moment, and he confirmed that it was, then he hit on the importance of high to low speed balance.

Between what happened to AMR last year after their wing got banned, McLaren's sudden slow speed pace post upgrade, and now Merc suddenly finding big performance gains and confirming their new FW is a big part of that, the evidence is mounting to suggest that increased FW flexing is a very powerful balancing tool to get the car in the right window in all range of corners.

[chrisc90]

Well its out in the open now, so the FIA and other teams will be looking at it. Whether there are additional tests brought in this weekend we dont know, But it could drop some teams down if they are found in 'breach' of having too much flex.

[DiogoBrand]

Might they be considering that the floor could be stalled with a certain amount of flex ?

It's a way of controlling the aero balance - at low/medium speeds the front wing gives good downforce helping the nose turn in. At high speed, the front wing bleeds off some downforce giving a slight bit of understeer which is a desirable thing in a high speed corner.

Yeah but I'm wondering if the wing prevents enough airflow going to the floor it could stall it and reduce drag further.

I get how it reduces drag and ftont DF at higher speeds and returns DF at lower speeds.

I'm just not sure yet how much of the wings flex or drop as the video is limited. Is it just the elements?

After 2022 you still believe it would be beneficial to stall the floor?

[Vanja #66]

Maybe. If so, why are Red Bull are so keen on the technical directive and why did Allison describe the realisation about using Ferrari and McLaren style front wing flexing to solve Mercedes' low to high speed balance problems as an "Oh God" moment on the F1 Nation Podcast?

Allison was overly dramatic because they know they were again trying to be too clever for their own good with their "Y350 vortex" launch-spec front wing. Monaco wing is very, very similar to their last year's Hungary wing, also the spec they finished the year with I think. They've made a step back to the right track basically

You suppose it is a nothingburger and NOT key to Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes recently closing the gap to Red Bull?

No, it's absolutely not the key of McLaren and Ferrari improvement since the start of the year Ferrari barely touched it with Imola upgrade. Also let's not forget Ferrari was ahead of Red Bull with chassis design in 2022, if nothing they are getting their chassis back to where it started this reg cycle. And 2 years ago, Ferrari had a very small span of detached flaps, while RB had it as big as it is today

Hopefully it is a nothingburger and the season remains close, for the good of the competition. On the other hand, I don't see why Red Bull would be advocating for a new TD on this matter against their three closest challengers (as Mercedes did in 2021 about Red Bull's flexi rear wing) if it was worth only a negligible amount of laptime.

Pointing finger in a far-fetched effort to derail opposition is nothing new in F1, it's been done already in 60s and 70s. Also for Horner it's a good chance to give an excuse to Thais why they aren't as good as they were last year.

The amount of laptime Aston Martin lost, with no longer their flexible nose cone, seemed to be significant in mid 2023.

AMR23 was humbled by strikingly poor start from Mercedes and Ferrari. At the same time, they got lost with development and are still suffering, for multiple organisational reasons and unbearable pressure from Stroll sr I imagine. Let's not forget Alonso got a well deserved podium in Brasil last year, so the car wasn't really bad - opposition simply got better after 7-8 races into the season.

[Watto]

Wonder how much its a case of Red Bull also being very sure about spending limited development resources on their own flexiwing.


They obviously have the lowest development allocation and probably don't want to spend that time on their own solution IF the FIA is looking at closing it down. Its probably most costly to them to go down this path than others if its shut down/rules are tightened.

It we get it banned good, it maybe a setback for other teams, it not then we go down this path too with clarity (as much as that is possible with the FIA) on whats ahead.

[Vanja #66]

They already have a wing that flexes as much as any other

[TimW]

That flex at the inboard transition from the fixed to the adjustable portion of the flap has been there since the start of these regulations, on all cars. So I don't think that is the point of discussion. Moving the flap adjuster inboard removes this relative flex here, but instead let the flap flex downward at the outboard transition. So probably on the inboard flap adjuster version of the RB wing the flex is just as much, just not visible in the onboards.

My guess is that the current noise is about the connection of the flaps to the endplates. McLaren, Mercedes and Ferrari all use this loophole in the endplate regulations to create a non-continuous transition from flaps to endplate. The impression was that it is to create outwash, but maybe this way of connecting is also used to make it a flexible connection. or to create coupling effects between overall wing deflection, end plate deflection and flap twist.

[Stu]

This is gonna be a bigger nothingburger topic than the W13 zeropod midwing legality

Maybe. If so, why are Red Bull are so keen on the technical directive and why did Allison describe the realisation about using Ferrari and McLaren style front wing flexing to solve Mercedes' low to high speed balance problems as an "Oh God" moment on the F1 Nation Podcast?

Oh God, how can we've been so dumb kind of moment where you see the path forward and you should have seen it sooner.

- James Allison, F1 Nation

You suppose it is a nothingburger and NOT key to Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes recently closing the gap to Red Bull?

He said more than that. He was asked directly about the front wing being a big part in that "oh god" moment, and he confirmed that it was, then he hit on the importance of high to low speed balance.

I’ve not listened, but if that it what he said he is just trying to stir it up, Merc were flexing the flaps monstrously last year (even the stubs attached to the nose were flexing until the TD018 ‘band-aid’ got applied - it ran through the Einhall logo on the side of the nose).
I thought much more of JA than that disingenuous claptrap.

[Cs98]

Maybe. If so, why are Red Bull are so keen on the technical directive and why did Allison describe the realisation about using Ferrari and McLaren style front wing flexing to solve Mercedes' low to high speed balance problems as an "Oh God" moment on the F1 Nation Podcast?



- James Allison, F1 Nation

You suppose it is a nothingburger and NOT key to Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes recently closing the gap to Red Bull?

He said more than that. He was asked directly about the front wing being a big part in that "oh god" moment, and he confirmed that it was, then he hit on the importance of high to low speed balance.

I’ve not listened, but if that it what he said he is just trying to stir it up, Merc were flexing the flaps monstrously last year (even the stubs attached to the nose were flexing until the TD018 ‘band-aid’ got applied - it ran through the Einhall logo on the side of the nose).
I thought much more of JA than that disingenuous claptrap.

Listen for yourself instead. It's at around minute 3 in the podcast.

[dialtone]

Maybe. If so, why are Red Bull are so keen on the technical directive and why did Allison describe the realisation about using Ferrari and McLaren style front wing flexing to solve Mercedes' low to high speed balance problems as an "Oh God" moment on the F1 Nation Podcast?

- James Allison, F1 Nation

You suppose it is a nothingburger and NOT key to Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes recently closing the gap to Red Bull?

He said more than that. He was asked directly about the front wing being a big part in that "oh god" moment, and he confirmed that it was, then he hit on the importance of high to low speed balance.

I’ve not listened, but if that it what he said he is just trying to stir it up, Merc were flexing the flaps monstrously last year (even the stubs attached to the nose were flexing until the TD018 ‘band-aid’ got applied - it ran through the Einhall logo on the side of the nose).
I thought much more of JA than that disingenuous claptrap.

I remember a whole controversy about the attachment points to the nose that were made of a different material because their shade of black was slightly different and explicitly made to detach from the nose for aero purposes.

I think it’s unlikely that he’s going to talk about big gains in a podcast anyway.

[Espresso]

Wonder how much its a case of Red Bull also being very sure about spending limited development resources on their own flexiwing.


They obviously have the lowest development allocation and probably don't want to spend that time on their own solution IF the FIA is looking at closing it down. Its probably most costly to them to go down this path than others if its shut down/rules are tightened.

It we get it banned good, it maybe a setback for other teams, it not then we go down this path too with clarity (as much as that is possible with the FIA) on whats ahead.

Imho RB just testing the water how strict the testing is applied. AM got banned, MB allowed. RB says interesting

Btw. You don’t hear Toto anymore about more load, more load….guess he finally understands optimal downforce, in other words decrease the downforce at high speed….